2.9.0 is out...

Discussion in 'MASCHINE Area' started by Supercreative, Nov 20, 2019.

  1. HammyHavoc

    HammyHavoc NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    964
    Source being my own research; I run a multi-award winning marketing agency and have several analytics tools for YouTube at my disposal. You can measure the number of videos being uploaded over x period containing y keywords, and even throw in z (views) to see if it's trending upwards or downwards in terms of interest, and even distill it further by not counting multiple uploads from the same user.

    YouTube isn't the whole story (relies on keywords, including auto-generated subtitles), neither is Twitter, Instagram or Facebook, neither are search results, but we can make a fairly educated guess based on social metrics (including engagement on top of followers, direct mentions, and keyword mentions), Google's Keyword Planner's stats and suggestions, and the fact that Bitwig is a DAW, whereas Maschine is a groovebox-esque software workflow with a hardware controller.

    "Hits", more accurately referred to as results in this scenario, don't equal interest, that's why Google's Keyword Planner is an important metric of interest (search traffic) versus how many pages there are for something. Prime example: we are creating Maschine related results for Google all the time on this forum. Bitwig don't actually appear to have an official forum.

    If you were to go to https://www.native-instruments.com/forum/ then you'll see the stats of how many threads and posts there are on the NI forum, a lot of which will be referencing Maschine, even in the context of a user's signature, or the category in which the post is, i.e. this one.

    NI's forum stats for the lazy:
    • Discussions: 240,666
    • Messages: 1,528,987
    So again, we can conclude that search results versus search traffic volume and contextual potential ad-space on Google Keyword Planner are a poor metric of userbase when compared against each other.

    To add a further spanner in the works: interest also doesn't equal customers, which also don't equal active users. Lots of people are searching for Tesla's Cybertruck after seeing the unusual design, but only a fraction of those are going to become a customer, and a fraction of those are going to be an active user, the typical sales funnel.

    "Maschine" is also a real word and not just a product, it's frequently used, especially with a Terminator movie and game having just been released, whereas Bitwig is a DAW, it's otherwise not a word in any language.

    Does this mean anything to you and I ultimately? Nope, but you did ask mate. :- )

    Re the difference of development cycle between the two, I fully appreciate where you're coming from, but strongly disagree. NI's software development cycle for Maschine is very much linked to hardware as it's their defining USP that the majority of what you can do in Maschine, you can do from the controller, so the development cycle is going to be different from a software-only product coming from some of the original team who worked on Ableton Live. Software that has a dedicated piece of hardware as its primary interface is inherently less flexible than what's just UX in software for a finger, keyboard, mouse, or MIDI controller. There's also a limit to how often NI can release more hardware without irritating the userbase for one. Could they squeeze more out of the existing hardware? I believe so, D-One comes up with some great ideas for how it could look and work, as do other users, and I believe more is coming that isn't in the beta yet, because it is just a public beta after all.

    Would it be great if NI released more updates with more features and bug fixes more regularly? Absolutely. But they have many products, both software and hardware, Bitwig has Bitwig. Difficult to compare on so many levels from the perspective of business model, development roadmaps, many product lines. There's R&D into hardware, there's manufacturing, etc. NI is a massively different company.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019
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  2. D-One

    D-One Moderator Moderator

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    7,461
    What do you mean by far greater? Bigger in terms of the number of clients? There's no way that's accurate... Bitwig is not even a top-selling Daw...
    Heres the Youtube data:
    [​IMG]
    Not even close...
    I mean... All the online communities for maschine are much bigger, facebook, reddit, instagram, amount of yt vids.... Maschine users also consume a lot of other software content from NI, expansions seem to sell a lot as well as KK upgrades and such.. Bitwig only sells like 3 products, NI sells a ton.

    Ohhh as in trending stats? That's very different from greater/bigger, in that regard i would agree Maschine is going down (many customers leave) while bitwig, as well as all other DAW's, are going up, if this keeps going they will all surpass Machine's customers but were arent there yet. Dont forget most Maschine users also have a DAW while most DAW users dont have Maschine.

    Asbolutly true, and i dont mean to question you but surely there's a reason for marketing... Its purpose is to generate interest and awareness, that generates sales, if marketing didn't work no one would use it or spend millions on it... No?
    A products popularity should be an indication of it's userbase, not scientifically accurate, but still an indication. I am no expert tho...
     

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    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019
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  3. HammyHavoc

    HammyHavoc NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    964
    Always trending data; things change over time, and directly comparing a decade-old product (Maschine) to a five year old product (Bitwig) is only really viable if you look at current stats within x period.

    I also don't count first-party videos in my analysis or creators who were flown to Berlin as part of the Flame Orange/10th anniversary campaign. because marketing videos skew statistics quite significantly as they're generally featured on press outlets and product listings in music stores. The real metric of value is in content created organically by third-parties, i.e. real users.

    The other thing with YouTube is that Maschine is visually interesting to watch a performance of, or see a tutorial of, whereas Bitwig isn't, so long-term, there's frequent peaks and troughs for both products in terms of content creation. The larger, sustained trends always seem to coincide with the hardware releases, or software updates, which is to be expected.

    If you check https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=maschine&sp=CAI%3D (recently uploaded) then you'll also see that there's a lot of non-Maschine videos because 'maschine' is a relatively common word.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019
  4. D-One

    D-One Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    7,461
    I usually agree with you, and I do value your professional opinion but I think you're either missing something in this topic or perhaps I am misunderstanding your points.
    That depends on whats the purpose of looking at the data though, the context here was who has the biggest userbase, not who has the most stable trending stats for X amount of time, no? So... Are you saying that because the data says in the last X amount of time bitwig has more trend stats (or stability) than maschine then it directly proves Bitwig has a bigger userbase and because of that it develops faster?? that's a bold statement...

    Personally I'd say it develops faster because all their dev resources are focused on one product and unlike NI-Maschine they have their <poop> together, built the software on a bed that allows development to be faster using modern practices, dont change their mind halfway through development and abandon a bunch of ideas midway, keep changing staff, etc... Of course, I have no way to prove this.
    I understand the logic but can't say I agree on that, there's so many extremely popular YouTubers making music on DAW's like Ableton, FL Studio, etc, just clicking around with a mouse, for both tutorial-based stuff and music-making generally. I dont think there's much demand for bitwig videos because there arent that many bitwig users to begin with... at least not compared to the other 5 major DAW's, it's a competitive market for a new company to be in.

    Yes, it's an actual word in a couple of languages so it will influence the raw numbers but even by date I only get mixed results for the first 20 or so results, if I scroll down until the end I'd say 90% are actually ni-maschine videos though... Not scientific, I didn't literally count them but scrolling through I mostly see Maschine in the thumbnails. On a clean browser where I am not logged into my YT account or have any cookies that would skew results to what youtube "thinks" i want to see based on my data. (unless it tracks me by ip or something)

    Let's make the search skew towards benefiting bitwig then by using "maschine + mk3" VS "Bitwig", one 2-year-old specific controller VS all general bitwig vids:
    Code:
    maschine + mk3
    HIGHEST VIEWS - 220,380
    AVG VIEWS - 67,892
    AVG SUBSCRIBERS - 441
    TOP CREATOR - David Bley
    
    bitwig
    HIGHEST VIEWS - 62,298
    AVG VIEWS - 12,101
    AVG SUBSCRIBERS - 351
    TOP CREATOR - Mattias Holmgren
    IG:
    [​IMG]
     

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    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019
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  5. muitosabao

    muitosabao NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    403
    Exactly, totally with you on this one. I don't buy HammyHavoc's assertion that Maschine's user base is smaller hence its development is less intense.

    You could argue that Bitwig is hungry to penetrate the market (younger product etc) and needs to develop ferociously.

    I know the comparison is not absolutely logic because the products are different. I just meant it somehow tongue in cheek, but my point remains valid: I don't think it's healthy or sustainable to have such an homeopathic rhythm of development. You will not have the necessary innovation to keep the product alive. At this drop by drop rhythm it will take them years to deliver any fundamental progress that Maschine needs.



     
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  6. HammyHavoc

    HammyHavoc NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    964
    I said repeatedly that you can make an educated guess based on public metrics, scraping data then graphing it, but also stated all of the flaws with the sample data and how it isn't that simple regardless of what data source you use unless it's direct from the devs as to sales. You and muitosabao focused on YouTube, I focused on Google's Keyword Planner.
    Which is something I did say earlier in the thread, but I did also point out that like NI, Bitwig has an issue with not delivering on promised major features for one reason or another.

    I think muitosabao's point was that NI's slow development of Maschine isn't OK if Bitwig can be developed quickly, yet my point was that the two aren't comparable as they fulfill different needs, despite having an overlap in features, and have vastly different corporate structures because NI sell a lot of different products. The other way to look at this is that Bitwig has matured far faster than Maschine in just 5 years, whereas Maschine has seemingly slowed down in recent years for one reason or another, though they still aren't really comparable.

    I did say "Does this mean anything to you and I ultimately? Nope, but you did ask mate. :- )" when questioned about a source of stats and I gave it.

    Yet another way of looking at things: NI has hardware R&D and manufacturing of hardware to take into consideration when selling Maschine, whereas Bitwig is a purely software product, profit margins are going to be quite different between the two, thus what's getting reinvested into further development is going to be different. Then there's marketing to take into consideration, which NI clearly does far more of than Bitwig.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019
  7. tempsperdu

    tempsperdu NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,722
    We are just IMHO teetering back into the frustration of Maschine users at the apparent and comparative lack of development on things Maschine regardless of metrics.
    Whilst NI does have a much larger product base it also has a complete lack of development in so many areas and that's so much part of the perceived problem, a great many of the products that form Komplete have been in stasis for years in some cases whilst the 'product' range has grown. Just even providing contemporary GUI's for Ultimate/ CE is quite a bit of work. Maybe just maybe they have realised this and are going to consolidate things more but it can't take away from the fact that most Machine users are not impressed at the pace of development and when they do see other companies seemingly moving at a faster perceived pace it really is hard to think ......ah..so what................
     
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  8. Kaldosh

    Kaldosh NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,533
    Anyway we all know who between Bitwig and NI has the biggest one...Not the same catalogue anyway
     
  9. StarSMASH

    StarSMASH NI Product Owner

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    608
    they could always add more decimals and fake us out if they get that close :rolleyes:
     
  10. matius_uk

    matius_uk New Member

    Messages:
    2
    After updating to 2.9 and flashing the latest firmware to my MK3, I no longer have any level on my inputs 1 + 2. The Mic input seems to work, but nothing from the stereo inputs. I've uninstalled and reinstalled 2.9, on both my Mac (10.15.1) and PC (Win 10 Pro up to date) to no avail. There's no way of winding back the firmware - it'll only update...

    Anyone have any ideas?
     
  11. matius_uk

    matius_uk New Member

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    2
    Typical, 5 mins after posting, I found the reason - I'd not allowed Maschine to access the microphone when I first loaded it (you can change this after the fact in system preferences)
     
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  12. StarSMASH

    StarSMASH NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    608
    story of my life.
     
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  13. DJ JANARI

    DJ JANARI New Member

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    12
    My prehear doesnt work in "All instruments" anymore. I guess its time to bugfix lol

    EDIT: and 90% of my synths and stuff is gone from the view
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
  14. DJ JANARI

    DJ JANARI New Member

    Messages:
    12
    Im so tired of this. Every patch just brings problems and nothing ive waited for like 10 years
     
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  15. René must be Unique

    René must be Unique NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,446
    And you have selected the speaker icon in the software?

    Are the instruments and expansions in the original place, or are they somewhere else?

    speaker + autoload.PNG

    René
     
  16. DJ JANARI

    DJ JANARI New Member

    Messages:
    12
    Yes. Prehear seems to work in Group and Samples tab.
    And all my stuff is gone as u can see.
    EDIT: seems like everything i have at D Harddrive is missing..
    EDIT 2: Alrdy scanned everything again and reinstalled maschine 2.0 software.
    Doesnt help
    EDIT 3: Okay so i found em. Seems like they transfered to my USER Tab. But now i cant adjust the prehear option in there..
     

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    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
  17. v00d00ppl

    v00d00ppl NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    173

    What’s the fix for the vst2 issue in ableton? I need my chord mode to play my sampler instruments
     
  18. Kaldosh

    Kaldosh NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,533
    I have no idea, still not working though...anyway I am getting used to my new workflow
     
  19. D-One

    D-One Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    7,461
    What's your Ableton Live Version? I think you just need to update it...
     
  20. baridw1

    baridw1 NI Product Owner

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    145
    Only supportive argument I have for this one is: Catalina support is critical for users who purchase the new line of apple products as they ship with Catalina and likely can't go backwards in OS versions.
     
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