1. Please do not install macOS 10.15 Catalina yet, as Native Instruments software and hardware products are not supported under macOS 10.15 yet. For more info, please go HERE!
    Dismiss Notice

a letter to NI and the traktor user community

Discussion in 'TRAKTOR 3' started by jay michael, Jan 29, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. signaturex

    signaturex NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    2,116
    I think there is a very relevant sweet spot here--


    "For all my efforts to customise T3.2 to my requirements, its still does not feel as 'natural' to me as T.2.5. I'm only sticking with T3.2 because of the hassle of redoing my collection back to T2.5."


    Its inception and occurance is due to so many factors and un-repeatable(and un-editable) variables. These have brought about a level of function that has a very dedicated usership and also a stable hardware base that supports it. Asking this user ship to change its ways as well as asking technologey to be "in the right place" to make the software function as well as it does right there in the sweet spot: Requires everyone to "come around again" when the timing is right.

    It is quite possible that a user will never feel as intutative with a piece of software and method as they did when they first learned it. Its kind of like being in love.

    The users ability to adapt to limitations and FACE the challenges of different way of doing things is the only real SKILL that they can rely on. This is a very relevant idealism and one that follows you from your birth till your death as a human being as well.

    I will soon be in possession of an fs2 system to work wtih, and I would also like to gain versions of all the stages of this software's development as well as the optimal hardware profiles from those time periods, so that I may gauge it and have a real understanding of its core ideal. Also -- so that I may be creative and realistic in my thoughts and practices of the future.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    @boy steve -- subdueing your practices by quarantining yourself away from the rest of the user ship is creating a bad relationship between your ideas and the actual direction of the platform. -- and this is getting destructive -- it is evident in your posts and your treatment of others.

    You have now thrice insulted my intelligence, and my core spirit and subsequently the metaphors and manifestations of my DJ and his/her connections to the world.

    Last night I found myself rewinding and editing hundreds of times until I had what I thought was a very summing, poignant, and powerful statement about what I think of you and your ways. BUT. It now no longer stands because i cannot look at the ugliness that i have created and projected at you. I see that thing that is now gone only as a stupid manifestation of my quick and sharp and poorly motivated feelings. I am not good at being combative, as it injures me and those around me deeply. Also I cannot allow myself to be put into such a state by your words in this simple neutral ground. I have to be 'a pussy' for you...One that you can do this to and get a smile back from. And so be it. You will always win, and I will always just be hurt a little rather than raised to a reactional and destructive state.

    Not to worry (~8~) I am accustomed to this in a cruel dumb world, where the people like you are numerous . and consequently .where.. YOU ARE NoT SPECIAL. Good luck with that.

    ------------------------------------------

    for the rest of the thread and the rest of the users who interact with me .-- I hope that I may communicate my ideas in an objective and reasonable tone and language(hopefulley not too confusing;) ) that does indeed improve things on a functional level.
     
  2. DJ_AS

    DJ_AS NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    452
    I can see what your saying, and I have adapted to T3.2 pretty well. As you say, we all have to learn new skills - I learnt to mix with vinyl, then CD and then software.

    At all stages, I have eventually overcome the initial adjustment period but with T3.2 it still does not feel quite 'right' (not that a listener could tell). I think I prefer the visual layout of T2.5.

    Maybe NI need to speak to the bods at Apple as they seem to have knack of designing interfaces that are really pleasurable to use.
     
  3. trevorc

    trevorc Forum Member

    Messages:
    86
    if i were a developer i would be very concerned that a substantial number of my software users were drawing a line in the sand and sticking with earlier versions - the NI opinion on this seems to be that it's ok for users to stick with a previous version if they're happier with the feature set, but the hard reality is that users will not tolerate the breaking of existing features, neglect of features which already don't work, major complications to established workflows and serious inefficiencies in cpu usage which have most pc users in particular jumping through hoops just to run the program.
    i came on board at the beginning of T3 and so couldn't appreciate user frustrations about the changes from T2.5 at first hand. possibly because i work mainly on an external mixer i was running without major issues on each of the updates until T33 last october, when i started to notice unacceptable behaviour in synching, key lock and pitch functionality. i've posted enough on this already without repeating myself, but after discussing with support (Ticket#2007111110013708) and NG - both were helpful by the way - we've drawn a blank, and i presume i won't be seeing a solution anytime soon. a good number of forum users have reported similar or related issues, and they strike to the heart of traktor's 'sequencing' capability. the result of this is that for the last four months i haven't had much confidence in the programme and have looked elsewhere for my live software workstation, so traktor has lost another user. i would have joined the beta for new versions but i don't have the time to help fix traktor when i need to put time into learning another program.
    i've got a great deal of affection for traktor and a lot of respect for the work that's been accomplished. i don't have much respect for a software developer which releases buggy product which often seems to get worse before it gets better. after over two years working with each traktor release i am well placed to make a judgement here. in addition, the reputation of NI across the production and dj community is pretty poor on the whole, the 'release now and sort it out later' philosophy is widely recognised.
    i'd be delighted to see NI address the issues which are appearing regularly in the forums - the fundamentals rather than the feature requests - and i'll visit the forums regularly to see what's going on. to be absolutely realistic however - the NI team has a long way to go before realising friedemann's goal of a professional dj product which is professionally maintained.
     
  4. signaturex

    signaturex NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    2,116
    the amazing thing about apple (and I hate to say it) is that steve JOBs is absolutely famous for completely changing directions with his products and language and completly disenfranchising millions of users --forcing them to upgrade and change their equipment and software which conveniently --they have to buy from him! Lucky for us he has recenty gotten greedy and now we can buy his products at easily accessible places like walmart and radio-shack. :eek: Maybe its time for a new underdog.

    http://www.storyofstuff.com/

    Im not really complaining about this -- its the nature of the beast -- concerning the high quality and intuative products they offer -- but it is certainly one of the problems we as users may over look and sadly our software developer cannot over look if they are to offer us the same consistant platform to practice our craft and ideas on. And offer it at less than 1800 USDs a unit!:angry: These guys do have to be geniuses. And trusted. And expected to deliver! :( even if it does cost three or four times as much as we payed the first time.

    If a music companey such as NI would have the support they should build their own computers and hardware accleration sytem that does not outdate itself by default of ongoing improvements. Quite seriously! Many of the problems in our software is gained from keeeping it consistant with constantly changing operating systems! Look at how leaopard has treated US!:D It breaks us. And we blame NI.

    Maybe if we can get over the changes better and not be so grumpy about it. Changes will come along even faster. But we have to keep a tolerable level of communication on-going during these processes. Everyone is guilty of the problem right now. And there is no one entity to blame.

    Also posative outlook on the future and the actions of the past
    There is no use in shooting a slow horse. Cause an old horse is still a good friend.

    ferjenkins.. i rally am a cowboy then.
     
  5. jonniesparko

    jonniesparko Forum Member

    Messages:
    326
    :D
     
  6. boysteve

    boysteve NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    2,335
    NG--yeah, it's all about me. That's why I'm the one who took the time to aggregate many other people's problems with T3 into a single post when you claimed others weren't having them. Your selective memory is purest bullsh1t.

    You want to argue in favor of your software's limitations? Guess what? You win.

    signaturex: yes, I am insulting your intelligence, if you will pardon the exaggeration. You can't spell, can't punctuate, have the focus of a mayfly, and wouldn't know what a thesis statement was if it stole your wallet.

    I have been on this forum for five years, but you two have managed to make me glad to not even lurk on the thing any more. Which will be the case following the period at the end of this sentence.
     
  7. signaturex

    signaturex NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    2,116
  8. arcurback

    arcurback Forum Member

    Messages:
    53
    @ Friedman

    I have used T2 for over 2 years and I refused to upgrade to T3 because I found the layout very difficult to navigate in a live setting and the key display did not show the alphabetical value.

    when T3.3 came out and it was rumoured that the key display was addressed (which i later found out it meant from being some arbitrary number to single whole digits) I decided to upgrade.

    within 2 weeks i demanded a refund and by 5 weeks i got it. i have rolled back to 2.6 and stopped posting on this forum because i was getting really nasty and bitter that i paid for a product that i resisted so much and then have my doubts hit me square in the face.

    here is what i had difficulties with:

    -unstable, crashed every few hours none stop and i have tweaked and tweaked my system, and i have almost the exact same set up as Native Girl.

    -in order to use the 4 decks you have to "hold" the "midi select page" which ties up one hand, so really the only thing you can do is turn one knob, so why even have the option?

    -the key display still does not show the alphabetical value. why even have the field in the browser?

    -does not do a good job of playing flac files, even though it says it does. my audio dies after the song gets to about 10secs left in the track, so if i am looping the last 4 bars, no go. sent in a bug fix, but got "it must be your system because we cant reproduce it"

    -when i hit "delete missing tracks" after it does its initial analyzing, the tracks are still there the next time i start it up. this worked fine in T2.6

    -if i move or rename a track (outside of the traktor interface) and relocate it, all my metadata is lost, ie:beatmarkers, comment fields, key info, etc. was this a bug or was it designed like this? this didnt happen in T2.6, you could rename, move or whatever and all you had to do was relocate and everything was peachy keen.

    -the GUI was much more difficult to navigate. ie: if you wanted to change your loop length you have to right click then drag and then select. T2.6-select your length, its on the front page.
    -if you want to beatjump ahead you have to navigate to the details bar, find the page that its on, select which deck you want, then change. T2.6-select your length on the front page.
    -if you want to beatgrid, you have to navigate to the details bar, find the page its on, select which deck, then drop the grid. T2.6-click, select grid, ok

    in T3.3i know that you can set up your details so that you can customize it, but it takes up 1/4 of my monitor space, so i minimize it, especially when i was trying to use the 4 decks. is there not a way to have the option to display the loop lengths, beatjump, beatgrid, etc like it was in T2.6? i mean, if the face of laptop djing is moving to midi controllers, the i assume we wouldnt need to see 3 seperate options that the track is playing.
    could it not be possible to have a "2 deck view" and "4 deck view" that is an option in the preferences?

    the reason i stopped using cds was so that i could manipulate the keys, bpm and loop sections of tracks so that my sets were seamless (not because the program beatmatched it all for me) but because i could harmonically mix everything together.

    T2.6 met those needs. yes i would have loved for T3.3 to work, but it didnt and so i am forced to use T2.6 again (not by choice, but by circumstance).

    please, Friedman if there is anything to take away from this thread is to please work on the basic and main functions of traktor ie:stability issues of the existing functions and features and the usability of functions in a live setting (4 decks with a hands free operation, quick changes of loop lengths, beatgrids easier)
     
  9. S1L1C0N

    S1L1C0N Forum Member

    Messages:
    409
    To all the eThugs...

    I have relatives from not so far back that were nimibian tribesman. they happen to have fought lions just to become warriors. I dont know what you know about lions but they aren't like your average cat. I bet you would absolutely **** yourself if you ever saw a real life lion.. especially if you were only holding a sharpened stick and you were naked. come talk to me when some of your family members have gone on the zambutu bibjano; aka the trial of life. until you have done half the **** that they have maybe you shouldnt even talk to me like this. I know you think you're hard and **** but guess what pal.. u arent'. now go grow some namibian genes and we'll talk about this **** for real
     
  10. jay michael

    jay michael Forum Member

    Messages:
    154
  11. jay michael

    jay michael Forum Member

    Messages:
    154
    Friedemann, thanks for looking into the tempo stuff for me. im not
    able to check on this for a night or two but will see if i can get
    the same results you say you are getting, if this is the case
    scratch it off my list of complaints. you have given me your
    thoughts on the kill switch thing, i do not agree with your thinking, still think there should be kills on the front page period.
    the issue i have brought up that is ultimately my most important
    issue is the deal with the key changing functionality. can you
    please give me your opinion on this, i ask and ask and ask on about why this function is broken and everybody at NI avoids
    this subject like the plaque. why cant my key data be displayed
    in the deck header? and if at some point traktor does AGAIN
    display key information in the deck header when i change the
    key will it be displayed in a letter or a number. when i first
    saw that traktor 3 used numbers to display how much you
    are changing the key i totally scratched my head? what good
    is this? why cant these functions work like they did in 2.5?
    in 2.5 this part of traktor worked perfect, now it does not work
    at all, why? is NI going to repair this feature? seeing it broken
    for how many updates in a row makes me wonder if the key
    changing ability will even be around when we get to traktor 4.
    if NI is never going to fix this for whatever reason, can i please
    just get an answer one way or the other, this function is simply
    the only reason im still using traktor, its the one thing that
    traktor does(did) that the other platforms did not do.
    thanks
     
  12. jay michael

    jay michael Forum Member

    Messages:
    154
    S1L1C0N, your post confuses me, you state
    "you shouldnt even talk to me like this"
    but i cant see anywhere in any of these posts where anybody
    has said anything directed at you.... unless im missing something.
    i know this has been at times a pretty heated thread but it can
    get like that around here. i started this thread putting allot of time and thought into trying to be very specific around some
    particular issues im having with this software. i would like to try
    and keep the drama down to a minimum, if you are having a problem someone on this forum can i please ask you to keep it to
    private messages and not in my thread. thanks
     
  13. S1L1C0N

    S1L1C0N Forum Member

    Messages:
    409
    Calm down brother, I was simply trying to throw everyone off so they crack a smile and cool this heated ass thread down some. On that note...

    "you really need to be careful how you talk about me on the forum, i dont appreciate it. tone down the disrespect, i dont know where you're from but where i am from, we dont tolerate that. dont even reply to this, just don't post again.

    consider yourself warned."

    Jokingly copy/pasted from ethug.txt,

    S1L1C0N
     
  14. jay michael

    jay michael Forum Member

    Messages:
    154
    ok cool, guess i didnt catch your drift.... welcome to my crazy thread!
     
  15. signaturex

    signaturex NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    2,116
    i was smiling and also .. i wanted to say -- "hey brother.. are you OK?"

    @ jay hey what do you think of the feature request I posted on note control of semitone steps.

    besides being confusing and hard to read.. i know.. cleaning it up proper in the background
     
  16. jay michael

    jay michael Forum Member

    Messages:
    154
    may have missed it, where is it?
     
  17. S1L1C0N

    S1L1C0N Forum Member

    Messages:
    409
    btw, I just wanted to honestly say, great thread. If users and abusers like us would not do detailed write-ups like this perhaps things wouldn't move forward at a pace that would satisfy our needs in the trenches.
     
  18. Friedemann @ NI

    Friedemann @ NI NI Team NI Team

    Messages:
    823
    It may help to let you know that here @ NI we have understood this message and that we are fully committed to focus on usability aspects for the next major update. Me an my colleagues are reading this forum intensively and we use the vivid discussion on the board as input for design decisions. As long as the disucssion remains constructive it will be to the benefit of TRAKTOR.

    Friedemann
     
  19. Timtango

    Timtango Forum Member

    Messages:
    112
    Hi Friedman and other NI product designers..
    I've come to the conclusion that Traktor is ok for me when I'm well prepared for a set, and I've taken the time to put together a playlist with all beatgridded tracks and cue points set.
    For many of the reasons already discussed, I find Traktor difficult to use effectively for new music that has not been prepped properly.
    My current approach is to burn all music to disc so I can listen to it easily in the car, and so I can jump onto a set of CDJs and start playing my music. Traktor is for when I've got the time to beatgrid and noodle around with efx etc.

    With that said, and beatgridding being SUCH an important part of the app, I'd recommend putting more effort into the beatgridding interface in the next major version of traktor. Perhaps even create a standalone gridding tool outside of traktor for laying down grids, cues and loops.
    The waveform display is tiny and not easy to use, and I NEVER get perfect beat markers from the app - I always need to put the tick on and listen and adjust to get the beatgrid aligned perfectly.
    Beatgridding is key to using this app effectively, yet the process could be a lot faster, more accurate, and more intuitive.
    thx

    Tim
     
  20. Friedemann @ NI

    Friedemann @ NI NI Team NI Team

    Messages:
    823
    Hi Jay,

    I was under the impression that Thomas already let you know that the Key Info will come back and it will come back better than before. I can only say so much: we are in contact with the guys of Mixed in Key...

    Friedemann
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.