1. Please do not install macOS 10.15 Catalina yet, as Native Instruments software and hardware products are not supported under macOS 10.15 yet. For more info, please go HERE!
    Dismiss Notice

BCD2000 & Traktor Programming

Discussion in 'TRAKTOR 3' started by PhilL, Apr 6, 2006.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. PhilL

    PhilL Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    7,066
    OK so now that some of us have the beast, we are no doubt discovering the driver disk ships without any templates for other apps. At this point I've not even installed the Behringer DJ software only the BCD 2000 drivers.

    A couple of early notes. I've now had two cases where traktor stops getting data from the BCD2000. A look in Midi monitor shows the system is receiving data but no values are making it to Traktor. This is a problem people have seen before with T3 and I don't know if this is anything special with the BCD2000. Time will tell

    Build quality is OK but I have a stiff knob... possibly something to be proud of... except its the the PFL MIX knob whose knob is stiff (more precisely sticky) and its a Control I use a lot when mixing under headphones <porn innuendo ='off'/>

    Initial immediate attempts to get the job wheels doing something useful have not been unsuccessful. I have gotten them to do something not useful so at least they can do something. There is lots to do here.

    I have not had a chance to do any other programming yet but will start later tonight. I've got a shipload of side work to do right now and until that is done there will only be a little time for this effort.

    One thing quite different and seemingly very deficient is the ability to do on controller programming. One of the huge benefits of the BCR and BCF controllers is the ability to do individual control programming and to save them to presets. Im sorry Behringer but unless your software is WAY WAY better that Traktor I ain't using it and I want a controller that can be well integrated with Traktor. Part of my hope was the programmability of the other BC? controller would exist here, so far that is not evident. On the face of it I would easily have given up the Mic controls to get programability onto the controller. use the FX knobs and value buttons to serve double duty and provide preset selector in the top left section.

    OK onto programming... I've had a couple of Emails asking about the learn function described . As near as I can tell Behringer were talking about Traktors standard MIDI Learn functions. OR Behringer support are not properly trained on the BCD2000 because unlike its counterparts (BCR and BCF) and as near as I can tell it has no built in Learn functions.

    Final bit of obvious but unobvious info. If you use the controller purely in midi mode don't expect the headphone jack to work. Its only doing Midi data not audio in this mode. Also, the USB connection is USB 1.1 (12 Mbit) it only does 4 Channels too which is all USB1.1 can really support so you have Master L+R and Monitor L+R (goes to headhones and you only get that if you use the Behringer software by the looks of things, although I'm not at all certain thats the case.

    Phil
     
  2. PhilL

    PhilL Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    7,066
    I've sent a message off to Behringer support proposing a coolaborative effort to solve the jog wheel programming issues. Provide us with some simple immediate midi programming guidance to make the jog wheels fly in Traktor 3.

    In return we'll develop and build out complete TKS files and programming guidance docs for the BCD 2000 and Traktor 3.

    I think this is a good deal for us if Behringer buy in to it, I hope they will, we get help solving the immediate problems and they get others expert in the software use to create the docs and help guides for them.

    whaddaya reckon?

    Phil
     
  3. boysteve

    boysteve NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    2,335
    I reckon they should pay you for doing the work they shoulda done in the first place.

    And I can't believe they're using USB 1.1. What, did they get a deal on discontinued parts somewhere?

    I'm curious about the sound quality in the AD/DA converters. Up to snuff?

    I was nervous when this was released, but it's starting to seem as if the projected Kombine controller doesn't have anything to worry about -- yet.
     
  4. PhilL

    PhilL Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    7,066
    The original design is over two years old and the USB interface was not updated since. You're right tho its electrical design specs are a little dated.

    Dunno, I have not even tried at this point.

    That was the idea, to get some comparative info. You have no reason to be scared. You have a controller targeted at Traktor, Granted you are more expensive but Kombine is for Traktor and that counts for a lot. Getting good comparative evaluation data will definitely help understand the good and bad of the controller.

    Phil
     
  5. rawb

    rawb NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    25
    Don't worry too much....this sucker looks like an economy car next to the Kombine! Being designed to operate with Traktor specifically goes a long way.....as far as price....in most cases, you get what you pay for.

    I think I'll wait a bit longer!
     
  6. boysteve

    boysteve NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    2,335
    Thank you for the encouragement!
     
  7. PhilL

    PhilL Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    7,066

    Yeah, think Yugo vs BMW 535....
     
  8. PhilL

    PhilL Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    7,066
    Gibus and I both looked at the output of the jog wheels in MidiOX tonight and we both came to the same conclusion within about a minute or two of each other (freaky). The Jog wheels produce a CC19 Dec64 value when wound backward and Dec 65 when wound forward.

    It seems JMugus advice provided this morning is good and we need to assign the control to button values but I don't know how we will get it to work yet. I can see some work to build some translation tables in MidiOX on the horizon or maybe Bomes Midi Traslator can help.

    Right now I'm so tired I can't think straight so its a something to look at tomorrow night.

    Phil
     
  9. jmugu

    jmugu Forum Member

    Messages:
    210
    Hi Phil,

    So the BCD 2000 only sends one constant value in each direction? I'm not sure if will work then, I think that should send from 0 to 64 in one direction while moving and from 65 to 127 in the other direction. If you can't get to work try it with any infinitive rotatory of you controller.

    The "Jump Beats Fine" needs only one CC but you need to set it as Rotatory (64) not as button, is like a Phase Shift. Before version 3, I've been using the "Pitch Bend" to slow down or accelerate a track to keep them in sync. The problem is that the "Pitch Bend" control in Traktor is an emulation of the "real" decks, turntables and Cd-players, behaviour, in real turntables when you slow down the deck you get a change in the pitch too, depending what is sounding (for example a a synth pad) it can sound really bad in the mix. With the "Jump Beats Fine" doesn't matter what is sounding you can precisely change the "phase" without changing the pitch. Magic!
     
  10. arkdog

    arkdog New Member

    Messages:
    6
    my PFL mix knob is also mega sticky!
     
  11. rocdollar

    rocdollar NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    947
    Hmm doesn't sound too good... I think your best bet is to get a refund and buy a Bitstream for a few more bucks 0=)
     
  12. PhilL

    PhilL Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    7,066
    After a decent nights sleep and a good long early morning conversation with a friend Rich McGann, I've got some more info. Rich has forgotten about twice as much about MIDI as I will likely ever know and as a sometime Traktor DJ, Knob twiddler, and heavy duty programmer, he is great resource and night owl.

    He confirmed what Gibus and I both found last night that the Jog wheels only produce relative values for the Control Change (CC) events when rotated clockwise the wheels produce value 65 and when rotated left they produce value 64. They produce no value when stopped leaving the software to determine the wheel is not moving. The presents problems for Traktor because the two control types that Traktor expects produce absolute values for knobs or for button its straight on / off (127 or 0 respectively). I've played around for several hours using direct input but have not yet found where direct provides any value but for true mod wheels.
    There may need to be some changes to Midi support in Traktor to make native relative modes work but don't expect that anytime soon.

    The up shot of what we know today is that if you want to buy the BCD2000 to make use of the jog wheels and don't want to spend time mucking around with hacks to make it work then this is NOT the controller for you.

    I have no answer from Behringer yet and to be honest I don't think I'll get anything that will be useful to us if they respond at all. My feeling is that hey are aware that the wheels won't drive Traktor and may be crafting .TKS templates that don't address the jog wheels at all or possibly will create a SYSEX dump to change the jog wheel modes.

    In the meantime Rich reckons the way ahead to make use of MIDIOX or Bomes MIDI translator to produce the events necessary to drive Traktor, although neither of us are sure exactly how successful this will be. Ultimately to work in traktor like we expect the jog wheel values need to translate to a form like a momentary push button where it produces 127 when rotating right and after say 10 Msec of no value, it sends 0.

    For Midi Translator assign Deck Pitch bend up to Keyboard key S and Pitch Bend Down to Key A then create events that listen for CC19 Val 65 and send key press release events for Key S and when it gets CC19 Val 64 generate Key Press A. sounds simple but its been a while since I've done it so it may take some tweaking.

    Bottom line for now is that if you are itching to buy a controller but do not want to spend time mucking around making job wheels work without a hack or two then the BCD Controller is NOT for you Take a look at the Kontrol-DJ instead.

    If you can wait a bit to see if we can make it work with minimal hacks then its worth while holding off, Besides I'm sure the Bitstream is close.

    I've not heard back from Behringer and to be honest I don't think we'll get any useful responses, if we get one at all, but there is always hope and we may yet be surprised.

    Steve, I have to say if you are worried about competition; then it ain't here with the BCD!


    Phil
     
  13. boysteve

    boysteve NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    2,335
    Well, it's a shame about the BCD2000 but not really a surprise (see: "behringer"). I mean, a low-cost unit more effective than the Hercules would have been nice, especially with a built-in soundcard. What app WOULD it be effective for out of the box, do you think?
     
  14. gibus

    gibus New Member

    Messages:
    10
    I'll try to get a look at that too this week-end...
    I need to recollect my brain first on all that MIDI stuff :-(
     
  15. AudioRapture

    AudioRapture NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    2,892
    The one it actually ships with, I reckon ("It perfectly complements the included BEHRINGER B-DJ software")?

    Yes, OF COURSE this is a very serious comment.
     
  16. boysteve

    boysteve NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    2,335
    Of course you meant the Behringer BFD software. :)
     
  17. djgeo

    djgeo New Member

    Messages:
    10
    I'm surprised that for how long the hercules consoles have been floating about, no one has solved this traktor wheel pitch issue, this was the wall I hit when for the past week I bought a hercules to try out... http://www.nativeinstruments.de/forum_us/showthread.php?t=34431

    Seems like what jmug said:
    is the way to use version 3 since you have that "rotary encoder" function'

    How is the B-DJ program anyway?? D-)
     
  18. PhilL

    PhilL Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    7,066
    Rapture you are too kind. I'll be blunt its not good DJ software... nuff said

    OK on to programming issues. I've loaded Midi Translator Midi Yoke and have control with the pitch wheels..... sort of... On one combination I've found so really works as it should. There is lots to learn and so many combinations to try this could take weeks but at least its progress, although part of me is now thinking send it back.

    EDIT:
    OK I GOTS IT I GOTS IT!!!!! AND IT IS TOTALLY TOTALLY SWEET!!!!

    Actually JMUGU got it I just finally remembered he mentioned this yesterday and it works AWESOME!

    Here is the current solution I'm running.
    Running Traktor 3.0 (but it should work fine for 2.6 and earlier using similar commands)
    I have Bomes Midi Translator installed and Midi Yoke.
    I hooked the BCD Midi interface to Midi Translators Midi In, I then feed the Midi out from Midi Translator into Midi Yoke and hooked Traktor to Midi Yoke.

    You can get Bomes Midi Translator here
    http://www.bome.com/midi/translator/

    and you can get Midi Yoke Here
    http://www.midiox.com/zip/myokent.exe

    I setup two Translators in Midi Translator for each deck

    Deck A - Incoming - Midi Message - B0 13 40 Outgoing - Midi Message - B0 13 01
    Deck A - Incoming - Midi Message - B0 13 41 Outgoing - Midi Message - B0 13 7F


    Deck B - Incoming - Midi Message - B0 12 40 Outgoing - Midi Message - B0 12 01
    Deck B - Incoming - Midi Message - B0 12 41 Outgoing - Midi Message - B0 12 7F

    In Traktor I followed JMugus advice and set the Midi mappings to 'Deck Jump Beats Fine The message breaks down like this

    B0 = Control Change (CC) = Message Type
    13 = Control number in hex = CC19 (on Channel 1)
    40 = Value in hex = 64 decimal

    You'll notice the output value is translated from 64 to 01 and 65 to 127.

    In Traktor I set the Control type to 'Direct', The Midi Control to 'Rotary Encoder 64', Invert is unchecked, Rotary sensitivity 2% and Rotary Acceleration = 0 or 1%

    This configuration is still be tested but seems to work REALLY well I have to integrate it with Gibus TKS file so I have all the controls working.

    If you have a BCD2000 Give this a whirl and let us know if you find a simpler solution.

    Once agian many thanks JMugu this was totally driving me batshit tonight!



    Phil
     
  19. dj groovke

    dj groovke New Member

    Messages:
    1
    damm if i read all this :s


    i got to go to the store and get my bcd2000 today, i already payed an advance months ago so i cant cancel it unless loosing half of the money...

    i read that you guys have sollution..
    dont know allot about midi, just can hook up my midikeyboard and thats it :s i know you already said what you did in your last post but i dont understand everything and i realy need to get it configured soon since we where planning to play for the first time on 22 april on a party...

    is that TKS file available somewhere?

    plz be nice and help a fellow dj out :D

    Thnx in advance
     
  20. RoyS

    RoyS New Member

    Messages:
    1
    Hi All

    I've got to the point of downloading and setting up Midi Yoke and Midi Translator and entered the translators as you suggest - This all seems to working fine but I can't see how to setup Traktor 2.6... I'm looking in the MIDI section of the Setup screen. Can you please add some clarity to your line and following:
    "In Traktor I followed JMugus advise and set the Midi mappings to 'Deck Jump Beats Fine The message breaks down like this"

    Many thanks...
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.