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Fallout from Kore's discontinuation

Discussion in 'KORE' started by Kymeia, Sep 4, 2011.

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  1. Kymeia

    Kymeia NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    6,165
    It seems the fallout from the discontinuation of Kore is now rippling through the entire NI product line and affecting pretty much all NI customers in one way or another. I was thinking it would be useful to list what we as customers, and also NI, are all losing from this change (aside from the discontinuation itself)

    1) Massive, Absynth and FM8 have had a change of format to fit into Maschine. Already there are many reports of problems with the import process.

    2) All Komplete products containing a Kore style browser have had the browser changed to fit Maschine's more limited attributes set. Not only does this mean less rich attributes but also people are losing their star ratings and colour codings. For such a huge library that Komplete represents that is a major problem for users and a significant loss of functionality and usability.

    3) Reaktor has just added one new feature to fit with Maschine - a "save as" preset in Maschine format. However it has also lost a critical feature - the asbility to set a snapshot list as the master - which affects whether the list appears in hosts and also impacts on Kore imports. Is there a connection between these two changes?

    4) I don't think NI has really appreciated how much the ability to create complex sounds involving multiple instruments and effects, and then to control and morph these in a performance context was important to many users. Although synths like Absynth and Massive are great in themselves, their combined abilities in Kore were even greater, and coupled with the slick performance features of Kore they gave Komplete an edge over competitors like Omnisphere and Alchemy which had added similar performance features themselves (as well as things like star ratings etc). Now they may have the edge unless NI can come up with another way to fill that gap.
     
  2. BIF

    BIF NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,090
    I've been thinking that they're going to lose a lot lot lot more than they ever thought, especially with the release of Komplete 8 Ultimate.

    Yes, you might wonder why I decided to get it, especially with the brutal termination of Kore and all the messy aftermath with the Kore Packs. Now yes, I did get ...what 11 or 12 Kore packs for I think an average price of $7-$10 each? Yeah, that was a good deal, but man we had to work for it, didn't we? I suspect that if we didn't say anything, then nothing would have happened.

    It'e pretty simple for me. For $500, I'm getting the whole NI catalog. If I counted correctly, I'm getting 41 instruments and effects that I do not already have. That works out to $12 per instrument or effect, which is DIRT CHEAP.

    Additionally (and amazingly), Komplete 8 includes none of the instruments that I got in the Kore packs, so that makes the math above really easy.

    $12 per instrument is cheaper than a movie in some cities now. Way cheaper than a concert ticket, or even the cover charge of a night club.

    But it's also cheap for me musically and stress-wise.

    • I get everything that I don't already have. I already have Maschine, Kore 2 and numerous related Kore packs, plus all those older discontinued but still great Komplete products that still work.
    • I'm paying $500 to basically take everything off the table before I jump off the Native Instruments merry-go-round. I'll be here to work on the reclamation project of course, and I'll continue to use the K8 instruments which I do think will be great (or I wouldn't have considered buying them). But I'm tired of NI pulling a fast one each year so I'm looking forward to being done with NI for a couple or even three years or more.

    I also think I'll avoid any further Native Instruments hardware-plus-software purchases.

    • I'm tired of them terminating products, and I don't think it will end with Kore 2. I do think Maschine will be next. Maybe not right away. Or maybe they'll come out with a Maschine 2, and then terminate Maschine. But the point is, I'm getting a bit exhausted from it all.
    • I'm concerned that the two NI USB products I have (Kore and Maschine) both have wobbly USB connectors, and I'm afraid I won't get any real support once they finally break.

    Yes, they got (or will soon get) my money for Komplete 8 Ultimate and I definitely look forward to it! Plus, I'll know that soon-to-come instruments from 3rd party vendors will still work for me once they start going to Kontakt 5.

    But at least for the next so-many ...maybe years? Yep, Native will not see future revenue from me. The question is just how widespread this sentiment will be. A lot of people already say they're stopping at Komplete 7 and I can identify with that feeling.
     
  3. sowari

    sowari Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    27,760


    1) could you clarify these reports and the problems that users are having.

    2) i am not entirely convinced by this point, but i will need to investigate it. but yes, the Maschine Browser has fewer attributes which are necessary to fit the Maschine Browser as seen on the Controller.

    3) I would say the save as preset has been introduced for Reaktor Player owners who could not save presets at all before this update - they could only saved changed settings as part of their project in a DAW.

    4) i agree, but i would add that Kontakt 5 and Guitar Rig 5 have much more flexibility in terms of Sound Design than ever before. i personally find it easier to work with one plugin and make some intricate patches than two or three.

    sowari
     
  4. laughingbear

    laughingbear Forum Member

    Messages:
    85
    - Investment security confidence is shattered. -

    If I look back into my purchasing history, I have plenty of investments into music related stuff that turned out to be dead in the water a short while later, and to clarify the point, this is not exclusive to NI, of course not. So far, I was pretty confident in my investments concerning NI products, until this Kore 2 decision was made, and mainly because Machine is absolutely no alternative to me and never will be.

    Theoretically speaking, say they had come out and stated Kore 2 is dead, we have to move on, and here is Kore 3, announcing a new hardware box, perhaps offering a discount to Kore 2 users, that would have been a different cattle of fish.

    From a marketing perspective, and I strongly believe this to be the driving motivator behind their decision, they must be pretty confident that

    1) The possible loss of users is marginal
    2) The market for machine is already or will be bigger than Kore
    3) The savings on the cost base achieved by this move are so significant that it justifies the death of an entire product line

    So, personally speaking, Kore 2 was my first hardware from NI, and I got burned. Machine is nothing I can warm up to ever and another hardware purchase from NI is rather unlikely at this stage.

    If I compare the investments I made into Spectrasonics, and the unbelievable return I got so far, speaking of the free updates in Omnisphere for example, updates that were filled with new features, rock solid software etc., this is exactly what I wish for when I invest into a product.

    Another thought that crossed my mind, could I live without FM8, Absynth, Massive, Reaktor etc.? The answer is somewhat astonishing, yes I could, and I am strongly considering to reduce my NI exposure to Kontakt alone.
     
  5. Ronny Bangsund

    Ronny Bangsund NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    413
    1)I've been blessed with no problems of that sort…I think! My count of how many sounds I have goes through Kore's browser, and I see nearly 10000 still :)

    I think I like the new browsers.

    2)I wish the new star ratings at least worked! I'm not so worried about attributes once I've found presets I'd like to mangle further, but star ratings don't even stick on the default presets. It looks like I need to re-save all presets to make the ratings stick. That can't be right, eh?
     
  6. Klinke

    Klinke Account Suspended

    Messages:
    513
    -----

    Now pack it and send it to NI.

    (edit: If you do that, do not forget to put in the link to your Koresounds etc.
    To let them see what you have done and invested in Kore.)


    -----


    Alchemy is a joke, because it is no FX-unit. (and no VSTs can be loaded)
     
  7. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    18,541
    Alchemy is a great sound mangling synthesizer, if you don't see it as a Kore replacement, which it is not.
     
  8. Kymeia

    Kymeia NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    6,165
    Yes it's amazing,and my point was just that there are a handful of really uber multi synthesis model type plugins - Alchemy and Omnisphere are two of the most powerful and brilliant, Kore was up till recently the only thing NI really had to offer that rivalled them and in some respects was even more flexible (Reaktor maybe in some ways but very different, Kontakt not really, it does one thing pretty well, Absynth probably comes closest tbh) and now it has gone. If you want a measure of how much it influenced the scene then just look at Omnisphere's own browser, or the fact that Alchemy's devs are in the process of creating something very similar and even FXPansion with their D-Cam synths ended up creating a very Kore-like meta instrument to expand them. And yet NI in their "wisdom" chose to dump it leaving a huge gap in the market.
     
  9. BIF

    BIF NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,090
    That was the punch line!

    The "just kidding" part of the whole joke. Like Lucy pulling the football away from Charlie Brown at the last moment.
     
  10. Klinke

    Klinke Account Suspended

    Messages:
    513

    Yes it is a good synth and can do alot to samples.

    But i just look at it as possible Kore-replacement...(looks like it was compared above)

    (i don't understand why they did not apply an audio input...can't be so hard)
     
  11. JPaul23

    JPaul23 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    930
    I got Alchemy a couple of weeks ago. Loving it so far. when I bought it I got to buy one free "soundpack" for it, so I chose Guitar Mutations which is fab, especially the arpeggiated patches. As Alchemy has knobs, a morph pad the same as Kore's and 2 x-y pads for morphing I was wondering if anyone knows which came first? Kore or Alchemy. Who ripped off who's concept ?
     
  12. Kymeia

    Kymeia NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    6,165
    Oh Kore came first. But Alchemy is clearly a good match for it and I have always used Kore to compensate for Alchemy's poor preset management but they are developing a browser now with ratings etc like Kore too. That is the irony = other companies are having to emulate what Kore does because it is such a great concept and yet not only have NI discontinued it but they have now taken those features everyone else is clamouring for like ratings out of their apps (eg Kontakt no longer has them and although they are still apparently in some of the others the browsers are much more limited and the ratings system less usable)
     
  13. greggybud

    greggybud NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    281
    IMO, while most everything said here is true, NI really doesn't give a rip...or much of a rip.

    You don't even need to consider the "casual" NI user, look at GS contributors who should probably know better, but post NI as "one of the most trusted companies." WOW. What this says to me is that for the most part Kore was insignificant because most didn't have a clue about what it was.

    http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/644994-plugin-company-do-you-trust-most.html

    If more people posted their experiences with Kore and NI's handling of the discontinuation, maybe they would wake up. As it stands it seems like we are just a very few upset users who will soon be forgotten.
     
  14. Tical

    Tical NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    122
    So this is where the company's resources which are to be saved after the discontinuation of Kore will be spent again: Maschine Mikro! Wow!

    It's good for me, every now and then, to have a look here, just to reinforce my decision to leave NI behind.


    Gospel, but, at least, as for me it is a bilateral forgetfulness.
     
  15. Klutch

    Klutch Forum Member

    Messages:
    154
    Well mashines controller is on its second incarnation so all you mashine guys can expect its demise with in a year or two. NI is known to follow patterns. When you learn the patterns then NI becomes a company worth investing in. Unfortunately I learned during the process of buying kore now it will just be komplete every 2 - 3 years and no more komplete hardware.
     
  16. Thomas @ NI

    Thomas @ NI Administrator NI Team

    Messages:
    1,576
    This nonsense has really run its course now.
     
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