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Having problems /w pitch after updating

Discussion in 'Technical Issues' started by t.i.m., Apr 3, 2008.

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  1. Insideout

    Insideout NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    16
    Ok have downloaded T3 demo, results weren't great:

    Record 1: 10 min side +/- 0.0 - 0.3 15 min side +/- 0.0 - 0.2
    Record 2: 10 min side +/- 0.0 - 0.4 15 min side +/- 0.0 - 0.3

    Still think that it may be more than the records causing the fluctuations. Only bought these ones 2 months ago to try and eliminate the possibility that the records were the issue, but had the same problem from the day I bought them. Perhaps they were poorly pressed? Desperate to fix this so will go buy some new records and test on Monday. Also tested my old records that were played for 9 months: 10 min side +/- 0.0 - 0.4 15 min side +/- 0.0 - 0.3 for both records.
     
  2. Insideout

    Insideout NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    16
    Got new records and tested them in T3:

    15 min side +/- 0.0 - 0.3
    10 min side +/- 0.0 - 0.3 for the first and 0.0 - 0.4 for the second record

    Still fluctuating at the same points in TS but not as rapidly, doesn't solve the problem of the pitch not sitting. Any other suggestions?

    Definitely not the turntables cause regular vinyl plays amazingly well. Tried my horrid old Stanton T80s that I learnt on a few years ago and the fluctuations were worse. Only to be expected though as the T80s are substandard in comparison to the ST150s.
     
  3. buenputter

    buenputter NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    1,858
    Tested my gigging-records (but not my spare-records) with the following results:
    +/- 0.0 - 0.2 on both sides of both records
     
  4. drunken

    drunken New Member

    Messages:
    7
    i have the same problem

    i am having the same problem, and to be honest i don't think is the turntables or Cd players, i have both and the problem keep hapening, it is very stressfull because i can never focus on my mix because the pitch keeps changing.
    I also try it without the turntables or cds, just playing in the internal mode and the problem keeps happening.
    Any help will be appreciated, i usually mix with regular vinyls and i don't have this problem.
     
  5. lukejor

    lukejor NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    17
    I have the same issue when updated TS to 1.2
    I use CD controllers, specifically Stanton C314. With the previous updated it didn't happen. I am getting crazy with the dropouts and pitch change.
     
  6. DJ Freshfluke

    DJ Freshfluke Traktor Mod Moderator

    Messages:
    26,792
    ok, then after these tests you should again write to support and let them know.

    and please let me know the ticket number also!
     
  7. drunken

    drunken New Member

    Messages:
    7
    This is what i try that did help me fix the problem almost 90%
    In preference go to tempo range, put from 120 - 130. Then reanalyze the tracks.
    This should help at least to be able to have a decent mix.
    Style Minimal, Techno, Techhouse.
     
  8. Insideout

    Insideout NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    16
    Tried changing the BPM range but it hasn't made any difference. Sounds like support are still looking into this. I wasn't able to send them any of my tracks as I only play wav. files and they are way too large to email even in zip format. Given them the track details so they can download and hopefully replicate the problem. Will let you know when I hear back from them.

    I know that MP3s don't fluctuate as badly but I really don't want to change the format of my whole track collection.
     
  9. Insideout

    Insideout NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    16
    Pitch Problems

    I've been working on this with support for over a month now, tried nearly everything....... sent a recording of my control signal and the MP3 file etc. All of my track collection are wav files but as they are way too large even in zipped format to email to support I've had to start troubleshooting various options with MP3s. I've found that MP3s can either fluctuate by 0.1 BPM like the wav files (but much less rapidly) or completely skip a 0.1 BPM increment.

    The last reply I got from support was that they tested the track with my control signal, seem to think that it works perfectly and 0.1 BPM fluctuations really aren't a problem! It's taken more than a day for me to calm down enough not to write a psychotic reply. Here was the nicest I could manage:

    But whole problem is 0.1 BPM fluctuations! Do you realise that each 0.1 fluctuation completely wipes out two 0.1 increments of a BPM range? i.e the track won't sit at either 130.0 or 130.1, each time it fluctuates it wipes out 20% of the BPM range I can work with. It's occurring at least twice in every wav file I have. Not all files fluctuate at the same point, hence 2+ times per BPM range when mixing in two tracks equals 80% of the BPM range that you can't work with. Surely this can't be considered to be an acceptable or normal level of performance?

    As I stated earlier, I know I'm not the only one having this problem. I would never have logged a support ticket if my friends system was not behaving in the same manner. I've noticed now that there are posts on the T3 forum about the same issue so hopefully support will finally accept that it needs to be addressed seriously.
     
  10. sakaana

    sakaana NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    38
    Is this a MAC only issue or Win too ?
     
  11. Insideout

    Insideout NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    16
    OMFG! :angry: Support still do not believe that a 0.1 fluctuation can make 2 x 0.1 BPM increments completely void and useless! Apparently all NI support and users work with a 0.1 fluctuation and are quite happy with it. Apparently it is the same behavior as normal vinyl.

    If the first point is true can one of the mods or test users PLEASE PUT ME OUT OF MY MISERY and confirm that the following is perfectly normal and acceptable performance in any given BPM range when mixing in two tracks:

    Track 1
    130.0/130.1 fluctuates rapidly between both BPMs, can't mix with this, guaranteed to go pearshaped!
    130.2 ok
    130.3 ok
    130.4 ok
    130.5/130.6 fluctuates rapidly between both BPMs, can't mix with this
    130.7 ok
    130.8 ok
    130.9 ok

    Track 2
    130.0 ok but can't mix in with this as track 1 will not sit at this BPM
    130.1 ok but can't mix in with this as track 1 will not sit at this BPM
    130.2/130.3 fluctuates rapidly between both BPMs, can't mix with this
    130.4 ok
    130.5 ok but can't mix in with this as track 1 will not sit at this BPM
    130.6 ok but can't mix in with this as track 1 will not sit at this BPM
    130.7/130.8 fluctuates rapidly between both BPMs, can't mix with this
    130.9 ok

    Therefore the only good mix I will get will be at 130.4 and 130.9. The fluctuations will occur at different points of the BPM range on different turntables so I'm starting to feel sick at the thought of playing my next gig in a couple of weeks. Previously I've played out with my equipment so I could sort of work round this but that's all changed.

    As for behavior like normal vinyl WHAT A LOAD OF ****! If there was any truth in this matter other than the fact I am being fobbed off yet again ......... why can I play normal vinyl for 2 hrs and only make 4 or 5 small adjustments whilst mixing in for the whole set vs Traktor that requires 4 -5 adjustments each time the pitch won't sit or drifts in the mix. HUGE DIFFERENCE HERE! Seriously guys, would any DJ in their right mind want to set up a mix knowing that they are going to have to adjust the pitch 4+ times in the mix in? Could anyone feel confident that their set was going to go well under these conditions?

    PS @sakaana I've only heard of this occurring on macs
     
  12. DJ_AS

    DJ_AS NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    452
    I tried a little experiment on my PC, using Native Girls way of checking pitch fluctuation using T3 as described earlier in this thread.

    What I found was that the vinyl pitch fluctuated between +/- 0.1-0.4% depending on exactly which vinyl I was using and which side. (Technics 1200 MkII, pitch quartz locked to 0%).

    I then hooked up my Pioneer CDJ-100 and tested a control CD. The '-' sign would flash on and off but pitch did not deviate beyond the 0.0 displayed.

    I have often had reservations about the pitch stability of vinyl, even when using a high end deck. I have given up trying to beat grid some of my vinyl rips cos the tempo drifts up and down so much.
     
  13. Insideout

    Insideout NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    16
    :) Cheers it's good to know I'm not the only person experiencing this. Yes I completely agree that the problem varies depending on which vinyl & side you are using. As I found earlier, there is a variance even with new records.

    I'm really starting to think that my only option is to ditch playing vinyl alltogether. Can't afford to buy CDJs straight away unfortunately. As a bandaid solution in the meantime I have put aside a set of new records that perform identically just for playing out. I will also make sure I play on my mates Tech 1200s before my next gig so I'll have a decent understanding of what to expect.

    Very disappointed in NI. You would think that a company which is striving for their product to be market leader would be a little more interested in what's not working, why it's not working and if there is not an immediate solution perhaps being a little more forthcoming and proactive by letting their users know exactly what they intend to do to enhance such weaknesses in future. Obviously the next update in development at the moment has a system stability component, but if they could at least be more specific in what is being worked on to improve vinyl stability this whole situation would not annoy me so much.
     
  14. DJ_AS

    DJ_AS NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    452
    I don't think there is anything NI can do - the pitch fluctuation on vinyl is an intrinsic weakness of vinyl as a format. The fact that CD time-code is fine on the same software system shows this.

    If NI were to de-sensitize the timecode tracking, then the ability to make very subtle corrections would be lost.

    As you say, the only solution would be to adopt an all-digital solution, either using time-code CDJs or mixing internally in Traktor (using SYNC on T3 rather than T Scratch).

    You can't hold NI responsible for the flaws in vinyl systems. Exactly the same problems occur in regular vinyl too.

    Why are you having difficulty with timecode vinyl? I don't know the answer to that. The answer could be 'psychology' - you believe that the problem is the timecode vinyl so you have a mental block when using it.
     
  15. Insideout

    Insideout NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    16
    There may be light at the end of the tunnel. My turntables will not be donated to the Salvos just yet........

    Support have asked that I try beatgridding all my tracks. Tested a track tonight that would win the prize for the worst in my collection to keep in. Previously if the both BPMs were stable I would only get it in perfectly about once in 8 mixes. If it drifted it would need at least 5 small adjustments as it is a 2 min mix in.

    Tested at least 20 times. If there is no BPM fluctuation on either track it sits perfectly with no adjustment required. If the BPM is fluctuating on either track the drifting is still minimal to the point that only 1 or 2 adjustments are required. More like playing regular vinyl :)

    Well folks, it's mixing 101 for dummies! It's like putting trainer wheels on your first BMX. Doesn't completely solve the problem but think it may be a workable solution. Quite happy to mix with this level of performance. Not feeling traumatised at the thought of my next gig anymore.

    Ouch ........ putting Beatgrids on 800+ tracks at around 5 mins to Beatgrid each track is gonna hurt, that's like 2 1/2 full days ....... hope I get quicker at this.
     
  16. DJ Freshfluke

    DJ Freshfluke Traktor Mod Moderator

    Messages:
    26,792
    so all your issues are down to you relying on a display more than your ears?

    if you like to use features like phase meter or loops, then you definitely should use beatgrids. but if it's only about beatmatching you still could do this without beatgrids just by ear as with usual vinyl.
     
  17. t.i.m.

    t.i.m. NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    61
    As the starter of this thread I missed out giving you my fix of this problem.

    It hasn't been downgrading to TS 1.1, which I found out later. It had been Apples Airport Update 2008-001. Turning Airport off or downgrading to 2007-004 fixed my problem.
     
  18. deckmunki

    deckmunki New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Phew! I thought it was just me having this problem.

    I'm seeing a +- 0.5% (i.e. 1% total) pitch fluctuation using Final Scratch 2 and Traktor 3.2.0 on one deck, and +- 0.2% on the other.

    I'm hoping it is just a weakness in the vinyl medium, but I'm wondering whether signal noise might be a more likely culprit, and Traktor is having trouble interpreting the resulting signal?

    The odd thing here is that - since Traktor 2 - I've noticed that if you set Traktor's preferences to expect a 45rpm record, and you flip the timecode vinyl over to the 33rpm side (and play it at 33rpm), or vice versa, the pitch fluctuations get much much worse and it's almost impossible to hold a mix down.

    As it is, I'm having to ride the pitch fader constantly throughout my mixes, which is really annoying as it means I can't spare a hand to manage the EQ/cuts as I would normally.

    If anyone's got any ideas, please help me out, otherwise I may just defenestrate the decks... Grr! :confused: :D

    Al
     
  19. ziggy99

    ziggy99 New Member

    Messages:
    5
    WTF is going on!

    I for one am mad as hell with NI, here i took a chance on their product after the miserable failure with FS2 and now look at this...I cannot believe that the supposed update to fix problems actually made things worse. I was using my TS fine with the first update and then i went and downloaded the next update and now all it does the whole time is fluctuate the pitch. How can you possibly even mix with something so inaccurate? Having a perfect beatmatched set is crucial and essential to a good set. If NI cant fix this then they are gonna sink like the Titanic. This is a HUGE problem. Without control over your pitch there is nothing, thats the most basic principle of mixing. Also another pain is the fact that you cant record a mix unless you have it hooked up to the audio 8, i have an ecler evo 5 mixer that already has a soundcard, yet you cant record unless you use the audio 8 card. Im starting to think about getting Serato, or just going to using Ableton. Ableton is very reliable. Or even better yet, maybe just go back to old school style. Perhaps its better to have less variables so that less things can go wrong. If anyone has a solution, please let me know. I tried reinstalling all versions and it seems that the latest update infected something so nothing works to fix the pitch fluctuation problem. Why cant they just make the pitch control and on/off switch for controlling it internally or externally? Is it that hard to fix NI? Pretty soon it looks like your gonna have another sinking rock like Stanton did with FS2.

    MacBookPro 2.4
    2 x DN-S3500
    1 x Ecler Evo 5
     
  20. deckmunki

    deckmunki New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Ziggy, I'm not familiar with Traktor Scratch, but try switching to 45rpm mode - it made a big difference with me.

    If that doesn't help, one thing I can do with FS 2 is to set it to 33rpm but run it on the 45rpm side of the TC vinyl (at 45 rpm). Odd as it sounds, it's possible to do it.

    One way experiences significantly less fluctuation than the other, oddly, although this "trick" might be unique to FS 2 and not Traktor Scratch.

    Al
     
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