Key adjust sounds crappy

Discussion in 'TRAKTOR SCRATCH' started by discobald, Apr 29, 2008.

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  1. discobald

    discobald Forum Member

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    Hi, folks.

    I have a quick question regarding the Key adjust in TS. It sounds terrible, with chirpy sound, and there is no way I can use this feature in the clubs. The CPU is low, I have 2 ms latency set and everything seems fine (using a MacBook Pro). I play house music. This is really, really far away from what a Pioneer CDJ-1000 Mk3 produces, for instance, and I honestly cannot believe that's the way it should be.

    Any suggestions? :S

    Regards,
    Discobald
     
  2. fella

    fella NI Product Owner

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    Pioneer uses a separate dsp chip to handle mastertempo, traktor doesn't.
    Set mastertempo to the highest level in traktor(phase voc) and it should sound fine, but it requires alot more cpu power.

    Even better is to learn beatmatching with no mastertempo help, your mixes will be alot tighter;)
     
  3. discobald

    discobald Forum Member

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    OK, thanks, I will try it out.

    And why yes, I use only mastertempo on rare occasions, but I would like to have the possibility to do it :)


    Regards,
    discobald
     
  4. DiscoPoelie

    DiscoPoelie NI Product Owner

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    I find even the highest setting in traktor not good enough. Still sounds bad to me, and requires higher latency (10ms or so).

    But yes: A seperate DSP is the only way you'll get key-adjusted audio without much latency.

    Maybe this is an idea for a new soundcard: The Audio 8 DJ PRO, with integrated DSP :D No, thats too far fetched. But the fact is that the master tempo in traktor is not doing any good...
     
  5. Sub Brit

    Sub Brit NI Product Owner

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    13
    I agree. For me the Key Correction (even at highest setting with loads of latency) has too many artifacts.

    It is useless in a professional context.

    It is a shame as I mix harmonically and working Key Lock would give me so many more options.

    I tried the master tempo on a mates Pioneer CDJs (not sure which model) and it sounded amazing. Does exactly what it says on the tin.
     
  6. Sub Brit

    Sub Brit NI Product Owner

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    I only have TS not T3. Has anyone had better results using T3? Or does it sound exactly the same?

    Cheers
     
  7. fella

    fella NI Product Owner

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    633
    Sounds the same.
    Mastertempo could be bettered(easier on the machine and better sounding) but at this moment that's not the case.
    So only use it when needed.

    People who have cdj's and now use TS/3.3 mastertempo are a bit in a shock, but it's just the way it is, that's why I only use my SL's with TS/3.3.
    I use it pure as a vinyl emulation programm, because I like a TT better than a cd player(i'm from the old school)but I'll never sell my trusty cdj's.
     
  8. Sub Brit

    Sub Brit NI Product Owner

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    I use it with 1210s. Never really fancied CDJs myself. Surely it is possible to have a good quality Key lock algorithm with the power of computers these days. My mate has Serato and I'm pretty sure he said the Key Lock works fine. I have not yet heard it though.
     
  9. revilo3d

    revilo3d NI Product Owner

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    Keylock on the does work fine (ish) on the pitch slider control....

    However as I also do harmonic mixing and I'm quite restricted not being able to change the key of the original track independant of tempo (pitch shift dial once in keylock sounds bad like everyone says).

    Even then would it not make more sense to adjust the pitch control to desired tone - keylock it - then pitch shift for tempo adjustments with the key locked at the pitch it was when you enabled it?

    Does that make sense?

    EDIT: Did just realise im in the scratch forum and I am currently using 3.4 but I think the same applies
     
  10. dj mutley

    dj mutley NI Product Owner

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    can you record and share both file samples to hear diferrence
    w/key lock and w/out
     
  11. RockyD

    RockyD NI Product Owner

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    Is it when you're adjusting the tempo with the control vinyl/cd to beatmatch, or just when the track is playing at a faster / slower tempo?

    What sort of % difference are you playing the track at?
     
  12. kourampies

    kourampies Forum Member

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    actually phase vocoder key lock is much better than cdj1000 mk3.
    the problem is that it produces artifacts even with 0.00 tempo :(
     
  13. RockyD

    RockyD NI Product Owner

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    Could you explain what you mean by "artifacts" and why it's "much better than cdj1000 mk3" please?

    I only have the CDJ800s but I've never noticed any issues.
     
  14. trance alba

    trance alba Forum Member

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    thats because a phase vocoder doesnt so much "process" an audio signal, instead it generates its own having analysed the source audio. Seems NI left out the programming to turn it off at +/-0%, so you'll just have to turn it off. (or do you mean 0.00 tempo = not even moving?) seems a bit wierd to have a problem with key lock at normal speed seeing as it aint doing anything, unless you're doing harmonic mixing.
    The only time i get artifacts with the phase vocoder is when I'm adjusting the pitch, but then again i guess vinyl emulation is constantly doing just that. if you use timecoded CDs do you still get fluttering tempos in traktor like when you use timecoded vinyl?

    rocky d - an artifact in this context is when the outputted audio has noticeable differences, clicks, pops, blurring, etc.
     
  15. RockyD

    RockyD NI Product Owner

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    Master Tempo on the Pioneers was one of the best innovations of the CD DJ era, perhaps even more than the scratch emulation itself.

    I'm always dissapointed when so called purists moan about DJing with vinyl over CDs, especially odd I think to find them on a forum dedicated to a product moving DJing into the next era.

    I was personally really sceptical about these computer based systems until very recently but some of the features on offer, just like when I migrated to cds from vinyl, are too good to pass up.

    My point, in this thread, is that the most important thing about what we do is the output that our audience hears. Key Lock or Master Tempo on the CDJs doesn't subtract anything from that surely?

    There's a number of great things I'm looking forward to about Traktor.
    1) Carrying a larger percentage of my collection with me and the opportunities that opens up for more interesting mixes.
    2) Multiple cue points, allowing me to juggle tracks faster than ever before without the need for pressing up especially mastered cds.
    3) Not losing the hands on technique whether I choose to use the vinyl or cd control option.

    I am very concerned (having now placed my order) to read that Traktor's key lock sounds "crappy". :(
    Does anyone here have experience of Serato's key lock? Does it suffer the same issues?
     
  16. kourampies

    kourampies Forum Member

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    208
    Im afraid i even timecoded cds have a small fluctuation. Propably thats the cause of the artifacts .U can see sometimes the pitch changing from 0.0 to -0.0 without doing nothing on the cdhs, i ve noticed this on all pioneer models, and not only with my computer and audio8 :(
     
  17. trance alba

    trance alba Forum Member

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    does it fluctuate when not on 0.0?
    surely 0.0 and -0.0 are the same, unless its 0.04 or -0.04 rounded down?
     
  18. kourampies

    kourampies Forum Member

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    208
    no, it doesnt fluctuate when its even on 0.05. i will try it on 0.02 tomorrow, since i never use the 6% scale...
     
  19. DiscoPoelie

    DiscoPoelie NI Product Owner

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    396
    @RockyD: A while ago I played together with a DJ who uses Serato, and I did not notice ant glitches or artifacts when he was using key lock. But on the other hand, I did not have the chance to do a proper A/B test, so I can not say if serato's key lock is indeed better. Just to keep it objective...
     
  20. discobald

    discobald Forum Member

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    I'm afraid that you can expect the Key Lock to be useless to you. That being said, Traktor has a lot of other great features, so I don't think you will regret buying it. But, it is beyond me that NI can live with themselves regarding the Key Lock. They should rewrite the whole function and offer an update free of charge, if you ask me.

    As far as I know, Serato's Key Lock sounds better, but I have not tried it.
     
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