Not convinced yet...

Discussion in 'TRAKTOR SCRATCH' started by ridebest, Jun 15, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. nem0nic

    nem0nic Forum Member

    Messages:
    870
    You say you're a producer, so you obviously have access to decent equipment. Here's a test you can try the next time you're in the studio. Put your drummer in an isolation booth and put him in headphones or in ears. Send him a mix of himself, but send it through a delay before it gets to him. Start at no delay and start creeping it up.

    If you can get to 20ms before he asks you what's up, I'll be suprised. I have access to studio facilities 5 days a week and have tried this several times. I usually get to the low teens before I have him tell me there's something wrong. One of our staff A2s (who used to be a professional touring drummer) complains before I get into the teens.

    The point of this is that humans can and do percieve latencies below 35ms. This has been proven many times by people far greater than I. And while I don't scratch and am well served by higher latencies, I also know that other DJs are well served by lower latencies. Nik has a good comment I've seen him post before about how each millisecond of latency corresponds to the start point of a sample (I'll let him tell it - it's another interesting part of the latency story as it pertains to DVS).

    You are certainly entitled to your opinon, but it has little to do with the reality other DJs deal with when using a DVS.

    <COMEDY OPTION> What's funnier than delaying the mix you're sending to your drummer during a live performance? Dropping the mix you're sending your vocalist a semitone. Recommended for practice sessions only! </COMEDY OPTION>
     
  2. KLUBBA

    KLUBBA NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    55
     
  3. nem0nic

    nem0nic Forum Member

    Messages:
    870
    I'm starting to think that you don't understand any of this. Especially when you bring up belt drive turntables, which would introduce absoutely no additional latency in the DVS process. How in the world does that make your point?

    Also, stop pulling numbers out of your butt. Tell me, what did you base your additional 10ms on? I've been doing audio engineering professionally full time for the last 10 years, majored in it, and been doing it in some capacity for for the last 20 years. I can tell you what factors play into the introduction of delay in an audio signal. I deal with live audio sync issues every day. And I can tell you that propagation delay in professional audio systems is nowhere near what you suggest unless something is wrong. We get less than 20ms delay in the audio signal from the ITV feed of the F1 races, and that signal travels down fiber from places like Europe and Asia before it reaches us.

    Even in home recording equipment, zero latency monitoring is commonplace now.

    The only thing subjective here is your grasp of the situation. You came in here and made a definitive statement that was wrong. I understand your argument because I used to believe the same thing in regards to DVS. But I researched the problem myself and read the research of others. Your statement refers to the Haas effect, which is a hearing phenomenon. But we're not talking about the seperation between 2 sounds when we talk about DVS performance. We're talking about the seperation between a physical movement and a sound, so the Haas effect doesn't apply here.
     
  4. KLUBBA

    KLUBBA NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    55
    you seem a bit too touchy regarding your own knowledge and opinion

    But we're not talking about the seperation between 2 sounds when we talk about DVS performance. We're talking about the seperation between a physical movement and a sound, so the Haas effect doesn't apply here.[/QUOTE]

    I do not think we are capable to do a physical action AND simultaneously audibly hear the difference in single figure latencies AND notice the difference....(i.e DVS SYSTEMS )

    I think we can only discernibly tell when doing one action or the other, either listening or doing a physical movement. the brain couldnt possible process the 2 sensory sytems needed to do so AND register a difference under 10 m/s. Many many scientific and medical white papers have been written by many people greater than me .[/QUOTE]

    http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1160899

    also

    http://jp.physoc.org/cgi/content/abstract/523/2/503

    2 definitive reports on how latency exists between physical stimuli and the brains reaction. (and not written by me!)

    Its been nice ;0.........valium anyone!
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2007
  5. KLUBBA

    KLUBBA NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    55
    Dont worry after half an hour,you'll calm down, as I did. ;-)

    Lets be friends !
     
  6. nem0nic

    nem0nic Forum Member

    Messages:
    870
    As far as the equipment I sit in front of daily, depending on the room I'm in it varies from an SSL 4056G+, a Digidesign ProControl (post), or several analog boards ranging from a tiny Mix Wizard to a 50 channel GL4000. I also regularly freelance on a Calrec Alpha and a Studer Vista 5, and worked previously on Studer and Euphonix boards when I was at CNN. And it's highly likely that I'm older than you are.

    You keep throwing out strawmen and red herrings. If you want to post a reference pertinent to the discussion please do so (or point out how the reference you cited actually applies to DVS performance).

    Af for my familliarity with the Haas effect, it's because I actually bothered to research a bit about latency and hearing. Again, I felt the same way that you did, and this is largely because I do not stress a DVS with my style of DJing. I assume you probably are in the same situation. But I assure you that turntablists that actually DO push the limits of a DVS CAN FEEL the difference between 35ms and 8ms. It effects their performance in profound ways.

    My point is this. You posted a statement that is without question wrong. I politely corrected you and cited a specific and pertinent example by a reputable company that specializes in audio. You are now trying to argue your way out of a hole you think you've dug for yourself. Please understand that I don't care about what you know (or don't know). I just want the record set straight. I am not a delicate man and I don't care about hurting someone's feelings on an internet forum (because I can't imagine being bothered so much that it would effect me personally). For that I apologize. But the issue of latency is important when discussing DVS. While it might be subjective TO YOU, it's definately not subjective to the majority of DVS users.


    PS... Thanks alot for the latency measurement outline! I want to find a way to use this in my research!
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2007
  7. nik39

    nik39 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    757
    Haha, this is sooo funny. This reminds me of something...

    KLUBBA, here is an interesting discussion nem0nic and me had some time ago on a different board (long read, be warned). Positions were different, nem0nic had your point of view at that time.

    http://scratchlive.net/forum/discussion/?discussion_id=11209#130146 <- click

    At the end of the thread a Serato moderator also explains why and how even one digit (ms) latencies can affect your DVS experience.
     
  8. nem0nic

    nem0nic Forum Member

    Messages:
    870
    I have to admit that I got schooled by Nik and the folks at the SSL boards (after proving their statements with my own research and little experiments). I have no problem with that because it means that I understand the issue now from more than my own point of view.
     
  9. nik39

    nik39 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    757
    Yes, no worries, I linked it because the thread contains useful information to understand the problem for KLUBBA (or anyone else).
    Sometime it is useful to read wrong positions - that can make it easier to understand the correct ones.
     
  10. KLUBBA

    KLUBBA NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    55
    A bit too early in the morning to read a looong post (although christ knows how this got so long ;-) but I will read and post back.

    So before I read it, I only tried to relax the fact I see turning up on many posts about latency. Of course I agree that single figure latency is a desire with DVS, or in fact more probably a need to use it properly when being a turntablist, my initial post was as you quoted Nik,

    Originally Posted by KLUBBA
    Incidentally and chucking this into the equation and may help relax some of the intensity towards latency: although a low latency is nice to have, putting your computer under stress trying to get 6m/s or lower is sort of crazy when were talking about laptops in general. Unquote.

    and I further pointed out the haas effect as a general guideline what the human ear can hear "Qote: Waveform delay"............. Not "feel". 2 completely different types of latency concerning Djing and using a DVS.

    trying to get lower than 6 m/s is still crazy, a fact even more so when we are using laptops. that was my point, and I kindly tried to introduce it, to try and dissapate among some of the younger guys who keep complaining that they get problems when trying to get incredibly small latency times.

    nemonic took this post onto a whole new tangent. I never said we dont need low latencies, and with regards a DVS system, turntablists are more in need of a low latency, than beatmixers (of which I am the latter). 2 completely different styles, which have specifically different needs regarding latency. That was my point nemonic, and one which is relevant to using a DVS for each and every one of us.

    Turntablists needs with regards to physical latency constraints within a DVS. (of which I presume Nemonic was implying (and I see that the post I have to read is on a scratch site) are different than other types of djs requirements i.e audible latency.

    Beatmixing with regards to Aural Latency. (which was why I threw the beltdrive analogy into the equation, and the Haas effect.

    I'm sure you guys both will agree(or my i introduce nemonic for round 2!) that there is specific needs to each individual regarding latency and the requirements to actually DJing efficiently....my own paraphrasing, "is too subjective to ever have a definitive answer. ...also I pointed out "within constraints"

    To turntablists as low a latency as possible is a definite requirement. certainly below 10 m/s, even as low as 5 m/s might have an effect on their performance,(with Nemonics point that it is a physical action, and I do agree with you there.................. but regarding a beatmixer and with the known haas effect, you have scope, room, leaway, or any other way you would like to put it, up to 35 m/s (although I would say this is way too large to go unnoticed)...... as the Haas effect does then come into the equation when matching 2 seperate sound sources. (which is what we do when DJing with beats is it not, that is why I put the statement concerning the Haas effect coming into play if the latency is too large.

    So In summising is the following true?.

    Turntablists NEED a single figure latency because of the requirements of a physical contact AND aural recognition of a delay. Re Nemonics argument,and one which I agree with.

    BeatMixers have a definite larger scope concerning latency as what they are doing is trying to notice a discernible difference between 2 sounds (ususally the KIK)....... scope between 0-approx 35 m/s (re the Haas effect, ) so latency and certainly single figures is not a requirement that would afffect performance. (up to approx or under 20 m/s was a figure I put out as a guide to great performance for a beatmixer with no noticeable artifacts,and a stable pop free laptop system).....

    these 2 above facts are certainly true whatever way you try and dissect or jump to conclusions as nemomic did,when disregarding that the haas effect has no relationship in using a DVS....something that I think in summation of this post should help younger guys get to an acceptable figure without performance loss, and maybe a better understanding of whether latency can be an issue in being able to use a DVS efficiently or satisfactorily.

    So nemonic is right concerning Turntablists
    I think I am correct with regards to beatmixing.

    So the summary would be that latency and its requirements are subjective to each DJ and learning to compensate for. I think all we proved here is that latency is an issue that had to be solved, but that can only be solved with tolerances to each Dj, his system, and his own style. with NO definite requirements and a "size that fits all"

    2 types of latency issuse is at play here. physically regarding the sensitivity of the system, and aurally as in a noticeable delay in the signal flow, that is 2 seperate fields of latency..or am i again going to be "raped" in a forum.

    I just read the post, and if a Dj can hear (feel) the difference between 8m/s or 22/m/s then I presume he's a scratch artist (this was on a scratch site and I agree single figures are important when being a turntablist.

    (14 m/s is a fair margin even to a beatmixer not to notice ) but again in which context did he hear it or did he "feel" it ......and with regards to a drummer hearing a 2m/s delay? ringo starr methinks on meth.....no chance (but only my opinion mind ;-) too small a noticeable difference to ever come into play and notice with music, no drummer is that "tight" either on playback or recording and I've played and recorded with some top session percussionists(Faithless/Chemical Bothers), who I think have a tighter sense of rhythm than drummers do, due to their "direct" physical contact with the instrument. I would agree that around 5 m/s - 10m/s is possible to detect for most professionals to notice a difference while listening,and not playing (different situations)........,but certainly not 2m/s, as the references I posted are good reading in trying to understand "how quick can our brains react to stimuli of any type"....i think far more scientific as documentary proof,than some programmers/developers thoughts on how using usb or FW bus causes delay, and "can we actualy tell the difference.

    I presume then, nemonic that you arent willing to take any other evidence into factors that can plague the latency issue, or is reading a web post final documentary evidence, as long as it comes from a software company or a developer, and not definitive scientifically proven medical FACTS in just how quick our brain can react. (Is that not the whole point of latency and to how much it affects us as Djs?)

    and the posted Scratch article does explain some points in what causes latency, but not whether tolerances to latency can be adjusted to and what is "the magic number"

    whether this number can possibly affect ALL Djs as a whole. Single figures can cause problems in a DVS,especially with Scratchers, (but also remember that they are in the small minority,when compared to other Djs)........ I FULLY AGREE, and never disagreed with that statement.

    modern music systems, DVS included,can only be used with a passing knowledge of IT, but they are more so used by people with no passing knowledge of music or its theory.
    are they instruments or technical appliances? is this not a sadly overlooked fact that we are discussing computers, and a "musical instrument" a combination where knowledge of either seems cancel out each other. I am no jack of all trades, just a layman's opinion. Technical knowledge does matter,but so does experience of everyday situations.

    peace......and I do respect both of you regarding your experience and your technical knowledge, please do the same. IT knowledge doesn't rank above everyday experience,and I do have both,as do both of you do. Neither does crunching computer numbers when it comes to Djing and regarding the useage of a DVS, otherwise the developers who create the software, would also be Djs who can actually use what they make professionally..........(C++ anyone?) they would have built a system with no need for updates.... or is that a bugfix?......or listen to consultation and feedback from pro users, which i presume this forum is for.

    Latency is an issue, but their is no "correct" setting regards Djing, laptops and soundsytems. Just "LOW" but as to how low no one can say. This is as diverse a topic as the music we all play out.

    one last point. The Haas effect has a bearing on all Dj's of all styles when real life Djing and even if theyre using a DVS ...... not the bedroom, but the BIG room, I play large events regularly, and have done so for 10 yrs or more, and the haas effect when monitoring with one ear to the playback system and one in the cans is obvious to all pro djs, You might know it as slap back, I know it as having to compensate for latency in the large soundsystems I use when Djing. a time measurement I can easily calculate by knowing the distance the speakers are away from the stage.

    e.g Speaker stack is 15m away from the DJ booth
    15/340 = 44m/s Direct Sound.... plus the Haas effect for the size of room and room absorbtion/Rt60 =approx 10 m/s ......Total 54m/s plus the latency of the DVS with regards to physical reaction time...... things can get real interesting if you see my point............latency is an issue a dj has to compensate for, but one which in the REAL WORLD has to be learned as you go,as all situations differ, and saying if its not in single figures a DVS is useles is nonsense. point is latency is too subjective and many factors come in to play to ever have a definitive answer for ;-)

    or a number...just a word .....LOW!
     
  11. nik39

    nik39 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    757
    No offense, but I don't know what you are trying to say or proove.

    What exactly are you referring to?

    A system which can satisfy nem's need in regards of very low latency, will certainly satisfy your needs.

    Yes, most likely a beatmatcher is not so dependent of very low latency as there is no dependency of for example the crossfader movement and the record movement (scratching+cutting with the fader), but having a low latency would not negatively affect beatmatchers ;)

    I have no clue what you are aiming for, sorry :-(
     
  12. nem0nic

    nem0nic Forum Member

    Messages:
    870
    I totally agree with you in that a beatmixing DJ can live with higher latencies. I personally made the latency/features tradeoff long ago. But your original post didn't make any conditional statements. It was definitive...

    I am totally fine running TS at a higher latency setting if it means I can use the higher quality keylock (for example). That's because keylocking is more important to me as a DJ than latency is. But I also know that I do not represent the majority of DVS users. Over the last 5 years, I've been a contributor to 3 of the major DVS communities (FS, Traktor Scratch, and Torq) and frequent the others often. In my experience, most users are more interested in the "feel" of the system. Because of that I think it's important to be clear about latency.

    There are 2 problems with that article you posted. First, because the latency it describes applies to everyone all the time, it can be cancelled out. It's not a variable. Second, the article I posted has a direct correlation to our discussion that is made very clear in the article itself. Yours does not. So prove to everyone that you bothered to read it yourself and cite WHY you feel it's pertinent to our discussion and not just something you spent 5 minutes finding in Google.

    As for the rest of your post, most of it doesn't apply to our discussion. Again, more red herrings. Room reverberation doesn't apply to our argument any more than the article you posted does. We're also not discussing the "proper" settings for a DVS, drummers being able to hear a 2ms delay, IT knowledge, or program updates. No one implied that "if its not in single figures a DVS is useles". That was your creation only. You made an incorrect statement and I corrected it politely and cited a pertinent reference (and asked Nik to chime in with his).
     
  13. yagru

    yagru Forum Member

    Messages:
    78
    Latency is real important to me and im a house dj. Ive done everything possible to keep my SSL latency set to 1. Once I move it upto about 3 or 4 I can tell a difference. Latency really comes into play while beatmatching when you use on the fly pitchbending to mix. Alot of house djs do this (carl cox always), basically you keep adjusting the pitch with one hand so you never have to touch the platter.. it keeps your other hand always free to mix with. Any delay in response can be really troublesome.
     
  14. KLUBBA

    KLUBBA NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    55
    Ooh man this what a froum like this is for is it not?

    firstly Nik....I am not trying to prove anything....sadly I think this may be nems aim, by latching on to a statement I made concerning latency and the human ear, i.e a waveform delay specifically, nothing more.

    Quote:
    So nemonic is right concerning Turntablists
    I think I am correct with regards to beatmixing.

    What exactly are you referring to?.....

    I was referring to the fact that Nems point was single figure latency is more important to turntablists than to beatmatchers.

    our discussion, if you read back was not what causes latency, but just how important it is regarding a DVS......

    THIS was the main point, and in reading back the post i seem to think my point was concerning "waveform delay" only. I may have avoided this bullshit, if I had maybe inserted the word specific.....as in a "specific waveform delay".

    Quote: "because the latency it describes applies to everyone all the time, it can be cancelled out. It's not a variable."

    a nice starting point in relation to ALL humans not just Djs, this was cited as a basis of a starting block for displaying all human brain reaction times, again nothing more.

    Quote:We're also not discussing the "proper" settings for a DVS, drummers being able to hear a 2ms delay, IT knowledge

    all this was referring to the article YOU cited......or maybe I read the wrong article.

    and Yagru, I think the point was that latency is important to everyone...even me, but also as to whether single figure latency in imperative......to everyone regards to Nem & Nik.......only they can answer and speak only for themselves, being involved either in forums for a DVS company doesnt always necessarlly indicate they are correct. only that they spend more time having discussion like these than I do/can.

    Incidentally Nem.....I was involved in the approval descision for Lambda in the UK, as to whether the system was suitable to be retailed in Britain, having thoroughly tested with and used FS since its inception. (but forums were always a pain to have to deal with nonce like this)

    all I tried to do here was kindly point out that latency can and is a subjective issue to each DJ individually, and as Yagru indicated its more important to him......but not so to me.....Nem ....Nik ....? anyone else......

    "Low" is the figure....not a number !

    I'll go and read my book on "how to win friends on a closed but supposedly public forum", and "how to start fights with Unmoderators" .......should be good reading....

    Quote:
    Stop thinking there is any correlation between the driver settings and your ACTUAL DVS latency.

    ASIO latency is something different.


    Does TS use ASIO drivers?


    Now remember kids ..."Latency cant only start problems, it can start wars" ;-)
     
  15. nem0nic

    nem0nic Forum Member

    Messages:
    870
    I never made that point. Stop putting words in my mouth. And stop trying to dig yourself out of the hole. Maybe you should be reading "How to stay on topic and make a point" instead.
     
  16. KLUBBA

    KLUBBA NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    55
    christ almighty Nem.
    this all started because you dont read a post in its entirety,and I'll babytalk you through.

    If I have to explain everything,line by line, I'll need to give this forum a miss (as I have done with others who give no attempt at understanding what others try to say VERBATIM in what i normally try and do with a few lines, not write books defending what I say word for word, because of crass bitterness towards others "who seem to have no right to voice". Are you an Employee of NI?......... (Beta Testers N/A)


    Nik politely asked what I was meaning, and I quote. "Nems point" (single figure latencies) "is more needed towards turntablists than Beatmixers"

    I dont normally have the time for these forums,re: above, but I thought i would particpate because TS is a system I have decided to use on a professional level again,(FS had too many probs to use reliably with teh different setups it had to encounter) ....and I and feel thats its taken DVS to a whole new level of useabilty (when Traktor 3.3 is incorporated) and stabilty.

    with statements like "pulling numbers out your ass" that really was staying on point...? Do you feel Im encroaching on your turf? or would you like me to be a kid with no life experience who you can "railroad" as I gather with reading some of your previous posts, In fact even your colleague Nik lambasted you back at the beginning of this post for making your own untrue and unfounded statements..I felt that all you accomplished here was indicate what type of insecurities actually bother you....and retaliation here serves no bounds.

    I dont like to talk crap concerning audio, I also dont like yanks who seem to always try to infer on others that the greatest nation in the world also has the greatest knowledge "syndrome"

    try pulling that "out of your ass" ......yup the gloves are off!....hehe..

    defintely not a nice statement Nem..is it, and definately not one I would use in a professional forum, no matter how much I disagreed with their point.

    Lets move on dude?.........and I truly hope that we dont need to always disagree.
     
  17. nem0nic

    nem0nic Forum Member

    Messages:
    870
    You certainly excel in fabricating facts, the opinions of others, and apparently now, nationalism.

    Keep digging... it's fun to watch.
     
  18. nik39

    nik39 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    757
    Eh, I don't know if we are talking about this thread here, but noone ever said that anyone would have more credibility b/c he was posting in other forums. It is the arguments, researches and facts which are important - you have been introduced to a few in this thread and the other linked thread on the SSL forum.


    I don't think TS is using ASIO when it is in the DVS mode, but I am purely guessing. Fact is that the latency between ASIO mode and DVS mode differ, the differed back in the days with FS2, they differ with SSL, and they differ with TS. SSL does *not* use ASIO when in DVS mode.

    But in the end - I can't proove what the real deal with TS is.


    nem0nic - nationalism? What did I miss?
     
  19. nem0nic

    nem0nic Forum Member

    Messages:
    870
    This...

     
  20. nik39

    nik39 NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    757
    *sigh*

    That was really unnecessary.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.