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SA2 /w Traktor 3.3 & NI Timecode Vinyl/CD Upgrade Kit Poll

Discussion in 'General DJ Forum' started by djquartz, Feb 23, 2007.

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  1. djquartz

    djquartz NI Product Owner

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    5,323
    My only point with this if people want change they need to voice it.

    If nobody wants change then remain silent.

    You never know NI might say after release. He we have X amount of customers we just affected. If this the best way to satisfy those customer politics aside, let's do it.

    But if no one says anything, then expect nothing. The ball is in your hands to affect possible change.

    I'm done with Stanton period. But not everyone is in a position to buy completely new hardware.

    This is only for Traktor 3.3 becasue if you don't upgrade your hardware as it stands . You will not have timecode control unless you stick with 3.2.0.080 or .085

    If people gave up, well I guess they gave up. If NI decides not to listen they decide not to listen.

    There is not too much I can do other than build a case and let people voice their cause.

    Even though I'm moving on with the Traktor Scratch platform, I would still like to see the Traktor community stay over here rather than go elsewhere.

    Why? I believe in the product and I believe in NI.

    Obviously the SA2 users believe in the product as well or they wouldn't have stayed is my point.

    And with the new timecode scheme and engine it WILL only get better.

    So in the end, some users will upgrade to the Traktor Scratch platform, some will leave because they were given no immediate option.

    If given the option, those users can stay and enjoy the new technology.

    That was my sole point with this post. Just for people to speak up for themselves.

    And with that I will now keep my silence.
     
  2. nohiphop

    nohiphop NI Product Owner

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    943
    What would you think if Microsoft will start producing Microprozessors and a new version/update of Windows will no longer run on your computer.
    You will have the option to buy a last update until the end of the year afterwards you will be left alone.
    The new solution will be much better because everything is from microsoft now and microsoft is known for having stable 1.0 versions ;-)
    Microsoft would still be able to support AMD and Intel, but they are competitors now - lol
     
  3. nem0nic

    nem0nic Forum Member

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    870
    I totally agree and am working on this. I'll have some stuff for you when TS is released.
     
  4. PhilL

    PhilL Moderator Moderator

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    7,084
    Microsoft don't produce Microprocessor but they already do the latter. I think they announced the end-of-life for XP being 2012 just recently and Windows2000 ends 2009 I think.

    Take a look on Intels website for their list of end of life announcements. Go look on Sony.com. Their list of product that were support EOLed was staggering when I saw it a couple of years ago. Some stuff EOLed was only 2 years old I think.

    A bad analogy perhaps but I do get your point, everyone else in hardware already does it though so it does little to help you make your case. ;)

    Phil
     
  5. LNE

    LNE Forum Member

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    59
    @ nohiphop

    intersting analogy and a good point. Scary thought if one day OS and hardware would all be M$...

    Another thought, it doesn't speak for the competitiveness of the A8DJ if NI needs to boost sales by locking out competitors from their proven software Traktor... we shall see...

    maybe the A8DJ is so persuasive that even the SA2 users are willing to buy a new hardware because they really want to. At the moment, they are more or less forced, which gives the whole story a bad taste.... same story as with the FS2 upgrade - Quote Jamiroquai: "when we gonna learn?"
     
  6. PhilL

    PhilL Moderator Moderator

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    7,084
    Jeez now thatz funneee... The statement itself doesn't speak well to a fundamental grasp of the basic tenets of business. Companies aquire and or build technology solutions. As a part of that they aquire Intellectual Property and learn how to bring that technology to market. Said company then protects their product and investment and maximizes the ROI and sales by keeping some or all information about their products secret so that other competitors have to license the technology for use or develop their own. What incentive would there be for Stanton or Serato to somwething different if they could rely on NI doing all the expensive stuff then just waltz in and take what was learned and bring the same thing to market for no investment.

    The argument may fit your personal DJ desires, but were you the business investor being asked by NI to invest say 1 or 2 million into a project you will just allow your competitiors to swallow up for free in 12 months, I know for a fact what your response would be. if you knew you would almost certainly not make your money back and long term you would be left with no IP with which to work why would you invest in the first place? Why would NI even bother to try if they were left with nothing either?

    Phil
     
  7. djkee

    djkee NI Product Owner

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    149
    I agree NI should offer a timecode upgrade with SA2 support. If they are concerned about pirating or it only being used with SA2 and not any other soundcard, they could include a USB thumb dongle with the timecode upgrade.

    But, I realize that just because a fair number of loyal traktor users who also have been using the SA2 want it so, doesn't mean NI is gonna do it. They should, but we can't force them. The only thing we can do to voice our disapproval is to walk away.

    I AM NOT going to buy the current version or future versions of traktor and audiodj8 until:
    1. I hear from other users how stable and reliable the hardware is after 3-6 months use.
    2. The software supports 4 time-code controlled decks.
    3. Native Mix really works the way it is supposed to.
    4. VST support
    5. They offer more customization options for interface, including dual-screen option for having the file browser in a separate display so that the control portions of the interface (decks, mixer, effects, looping, etc.) are larger and higher res in the display.
    6. NI brings back a more user friendly interface for scratch DJs - TDJS2.6 was great, all it needed is an option to have parallel side-by-side waveforms for juggling/doubles. It doesn't necessarily have to be vertical like SSL, but they need to be parallel and side-by-side.

    I am jumping ship at this point - Traktor 3.x never really did anything for me and my needs for an all-around DJ player with standalone AND DVS control options. It strayed too far from what I need on the DVS side and in my opinon, NI is going nowhere with Traktor Scratch. It is too little too late and I can't justify paying $500 for what is basically a software upgrade - NI would be making me buy the hardware just to use the software.

    There are too many other options right now and I think I will try a few of them and wait a year before revisiting Traktor to see what progress they have made, if any.

    So far Serato has been adding the features I've requested to SSL. They don't quite have all of them yet, but they have said they are coming and so far they follow thru with what they say. Now that they have looping and time-stretching, there is enough of what I want to justify going this route. I can just download the software for free, buy timecode vinyl and bring my laptop to play several of the clubs in my area where they already have the hardware already installed. This is a great try-before-I-buy option for me.

    Other options I will probably be giving a shot before spending any more money with NI:
    M-Audio Torq
    Mix Vibes
    PCDJ Reflex

    I will keep checking back to see if NI changes their mind on this, but I am not holding my breath.
     
  8. nohiphop

    nohiphop NI Product Owner

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    943
    Well, its right we can't force NI to support SA2 with their Timecode solution but for me is this definetly the wrong way NI goes.
    It would be much better NI would support more professional equipment and sound cards instead of restricting it to its own box.
    WHY?
    Take a look at new controllers and digital mixers on the market.
    If these products will reach the clubs, no dj wants to carry his own soundcard any longer. All you should need is an usb connection to your laptop.
    This may work well for Traktor without vinyl control.
    Traktor LE is bundled with several solutions.
    Why not offer TimeCode support to this users.
    If you own a digital mixer you would not buy an aditional soundcard and use analog input.
    In my opinion NI will get much more customers if they will get hardware independent.
     
  9. LNE

    LNE Forum Member

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    59
    Sorry Phil, in your statement you mix up protecting IP and locking out competitors. How the hell does it have any significant impact on the protection of NI's IP if TS supports other soundcards than the A8DJ? Sorry, dont get that at all! The software will not be more open for any copycats if it supports ASIO soundcards or the SA2 as ASIO device. T3 does even support all ASIO soundcards except for DVS functionality.

    The same applies for the hardware. The A8DJ will not be more open for a counterfeit if TS supprts DVS with other soundcards. The decision not to support ASIO devices for DVS does not affect the secrecy of business information of NI's products (TS software as well as A8DJ). Furthermore, remember that the A8DJ is an ASIO device and sold as standalone box.

    Maybe I didnt put my statement clear enough. If the A8DJ was a heck of a sound device with unique features on the market (e.g. built-in DSP for decoding the timecode, DSP for sound effects needed by DJs etc), sales of the A8DJ would come by itself. At the moment with the specs known, its a good sound card, that offers 4 stereo ins and outs instead of the common 2 ins and outs. I miss any other killer features of the A8DJ. I hope it will be the collaboration of TS DVS code being optimzed for the A8DJ.

    I agree that NI needs to make sure of the ROI. That's why I stated earlier this is one reason why they lock op TS to the A8DJ. But still it was NIs decision to enter the hardware market. If they need to get the ROI by forcing long time users to pay seriuos money for new hardware, its no wonder a number of user complain.
     
  10. PhilL

    PhilL Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    7,084
    Yeah but the exact same is true if you bought a Centrino laptop Xmas 2005 only to find that if you wanted the latest and greatest you had to upgrade your hardware in Feb Mar 2006 to able to get it. It is simply the case with hardware upgrades that older technologies get left behind or ultimately not worked on any longer. Depending on when you buy in the product life cycle, as to how you will perceive the the impact to you.
    In our case we have compounding factors that for some make the situation either entirely distasteful or just outright untennable and users will vote accordingly.

    Phil
     
  11. djDoring

    djDoring Account Suspended

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    538
    but the audio dj 8 isnt the latest and the greatest available on market. in real its just a normal usb device with poor drivers and firmware (see ak1). so why cant i choose the lastes and greatest audio device for traktor scratch for myself ?
     
  12. PhilL

    PhilL Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    7,084
    Doring, [yawn] are you guessing or is this just some myth you've dreamed up to continue troll fest 2007. You can't choose your own favorite $29.00 2 channel USB 1.1 sound card coz the Scratch software and hardware are joined at the hip to provide the best possible operating experience. There are other reasons that you are either not going to listen to don't like or have not already listened too and frankly because I actually know whats going on with it and can make better use of my time tonight by using and testing Scratch (yeah I'm rubbing your nose in it) thats where I'm headed right now. BTW ask N.G. what she spent part of her Friday evening doing? I think just maybe she is liking Scratch.

    Phil
     
  13. djDoring

    djDoring Account Suspended

    Messages:
    538
    usb 1.1 or usb 2.0 or firewire. all these kind of soundcards produce unneeded cpu usage. the best possible operating experience can only be realized with pci, pcmcia or pcie cards.

    and of course yes i would be very happy when ni lets me use my rme or motu equipment together with traktor scratch.

    i am also willed to pay as much as ni wants only for software + timecode vinyls. i also know that its some kind of hardware dongle to prevent illegal copies. but would't it be enough to use a special usb dongle for that and let the user decide what soundcard he wants ?

    and the opinion that if only 1 audio interface is used the support will have less work then why not giving only support if the audio dj 8 is used ? otherwise look to the ak1 forum there you see whats going on. absolute chaos.

    other question. do you think that any professional producer would use absynth if it is dongled with audio kontrol 1 ?
     
  14. PhilL

    PhilL Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    7,084
    NOT!!! All of these cards produce needed CPU usage, the problem is that in some cases the CPU load is not efficiently used or is wasted altogether. With respect to USB1.1, There is simply not enough bandwidth present to drive to todays devices to do the kind of high bandwidth things we expect. furthermore their instruction set was not at all optimized for true realtime operations and USB 1 is abysmally poor at sharing when realtime and and non realtime expectations were both present.

    With USB 2.0 things are much improved, more bandwidth and command sets for USB2.0 do a better job to ensure equitable sharing of the bandwidth and also help ensure more frequent slicing of time on the bus. However all you need is ONE poorly designed device or driver and the house of cards can easily come tumbling down. There are attempts at preventions for such things but they are not entirely succesful. Currently USB2.0's major sufferage is from _Opinions_ like yours that assume because USB 1.1 was crappy USB2.0 will be as well. Bottom Line right now from my experience and also my OPINION is that there is NO other device on the market at present that is going to push USB2.0 to see if it can deliver tight realtime high bandwidth operability and we simply do not know how well or how badly the USB bus will do. Bashing USB 2.0 based on past history simply does not give the technology a fair shake. It shows a clear lack of technology understanding too. At the very least one should retain an open mind on the subject until such evidence to empirically prove the improvements, or not, are available.

    With regard to firewire it has already proven itself. I have the benefit of that proven experience: 1 firewire 410 plugged in to 1 McBook Pro running Traktor 3.0 and Ableton Live concurrently. Midi Out from Traktor keeps Ableton in sync. I feed the output of Ableton back into Traktor as an external input and feed the whole wonderfulness or mess (depending on your perspective) out to house sound. With Traktor at 10MSec latency and Ableton at 15 I get no problems. Being able to do that exact thing shows that your assertions are wrong and it would seem are more to do with perception and opinion than actual experience.

    On the PCMCIA front you are worse off than USB 1.1. Latency of 80-150 MSec was common and it had marginally better bndwidth than USB 1.1. However being as you are so tech savy I'm assuming you actually mean Card Bus which is entirely another story. Higher bandwidth and low latency and are commonly coupled to the system through a PCI bridge. PC Card is known to readily drive the Echo indigo cards without problems in late model laptops. The same is not true true for early Pentium 4's where the Ricoh cardbus controller was often used (in Sony laptops there were problems in some models). Quite ironically it was not the actual soundcard but rather the bus connection that caused problems I notice those particular points to be missing from your case above.

    With regards to PCI express lets consider the derth of PCI express sound cards on the market. You might do some research to understand why such a situation currently exists? :)

    That leaves us with PCI, a mature technology first hitting PC's in 1995 and now almost not present in new consumer level PC's today. It has the bandwidth to do what we need. But it suffers form its fixed nature today. Attached devices offer performance and flexibility, some are yet to prove themselves for low latency high bandwidth realtime applications. The real challenge immediately ahead is not attaining realtime performance at the device level, but at the system level. The whole system is a house of cards that at present is far too easily bought crashing down.

    They already do, you can use those no problems as a straight soundcard, but not to run the DVS control. I would have expected someonewho uses RME or Motu gear to have a much better understanding of the technology requirements to properly drive a realtime DVS system. Apparently I am wrong in this respect.

    for you if you don't have FS2, it will will be the prices as already published. And of course its a hardware dongle, but its primary purpose is not as you continually assert (to exploit your wallet). Did you ever once stop to consider the real possibility that maybe its easy to make basic timecode work, But to get the kind of low latency user experience that users are demanding that you need to couple your software to an interface that you can completely determine and control so that you can get performance and accuracy orders of magnitude better than your competitors. How is that for a concept?

    I looked... certainly there are problems but your assertions are an exageration IMO.

    I dunno... should we perhaps ask a real professional producer? I know the hack consumers certianly resent the fact, it requires them to act lawfully. And yes I do question the motive for the case made for no dongles for _some_ users, however they are hardly likely to fess up to the "_other_" real reason for their resentment of the dongle, now are they? Dongles affect everyone but when their primary reason is functional and is to make possible the performance, reliability and functionality that users demand then there is an acceptable reason to do so. It might piss _you_ off because it does put a crimp in your style but when it lets others do what they have always wanted, how they have always wanted, then as far as I'm concerned the case is made.

    Phil
     
  15. djquartz

    djquartz NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    5,323
    @ Phil

    Don't forget about me pounding on it too. :p

    * sigh *

    Wow, I guess I should have left this topic alone, huh? It has completely strayed away from it's intended purpose.

    Ah well.
     
  16. LNE

    LNE Forum Member

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    59
    nahm DJ Quartz, there is some interesting discussion going on. I keep smiling reading Phils posts just inviting to comment. We all know, arguments have been twisted on this forum several times.

    Just some FACTS I wanna put accurately:

    - RME cardbus is marketed to produce no additional CPU usage. Basically Cardbus performs as CPU hungry as PCI devices; It's simply just half the truth mentioning the Echo Indigo only when talking about cardbus devices. RME RPM is an excellent device designed for 2 TT DVS setup; this card is not supported by NI.

    - Bandwidth of USB 1.1: quote: "With respect to USB1.1, There is simply not enough bandwidth present to drive to todays devices to do the kind of high bandwidth things we expect." I dont know, what "we expect". The basic DJ setup expects 2 TTs at low latency. SSL provides this with the SL1 being USB 1.1. Prrof of concept. Of course the a8dj is USB 2.0 for very good reasons, I just mention this with respect to the microsoft analogy.

    - "They already do, you can use those no problems as a straight soundcard, but not to run the DVS control. I would have expected someonewho uses RME or Motu gear to have a much better understanding of the technology requirements to properly drive a realtime DVS system." - Please try the RME RPM with VDJ, Mixvibes or even DJDecks and think this statement over. Thank you.

    - USB Dongle - not a good idea. Ask alcathech and their users for the experience with the USB dongle used...

    Peace
     
  17. Steveborough

    Steveborough NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    45
    Selling anyone their 3.0 product thats supposed to support a specific hardware and feature set (SA2 & vinyl control) then locking those customers out within a year with version 3.2.1 (barely a valid 3.1 release in my book) is wrong and i've been in the software business for a while. Would be like if microsoft made Vista compaitible with mac hardware then released a service pack that removed that compaitibility from a wide user base. High and dry my man, high and dry. Oh well; thats the way it goes sometimes but dont expect the stepped on to go so quietly.

    Why havent any of the mods pleaded on our behalfs, you're just moderators not business analysts or NI stock holders. (sorry for the tone)
     
  18. harry_Tf

    harry_Tf Forum Member

    Messages:
    190
    time to chime in.
    i've been a finalscratch user since the beginning. i have been persecuted for not playing records, back in the day, and continue to be persecuted for not using serato,today. i have stuck with this since day 1 as being a viable solution to my many touring woes.i have since moved to vancouver and have stopped touring but continue to play a couple regular nights and various other shows here while i finish the next record up. now since fs2/ni is over, i really don't care about upgrades at this point, but what i do want to know is if traktorscratch will be made available to current users before the general populous? since i already own connectiv and serato i can easily dust those off, but the truth be known, i cant stand either's gui. so basically all i want to do is upgrade asap so i don't have to change things completely. while i read through this forum about costs and such, i have read some really good points of comparison, ie laptops, processors, graphics cards. all update quite frequently, and if you want the latest, you got to buy it, theres no upgrade offers for videocards. i have 2 macbooks, there was no upgrade offer from core duo to core 2 duo. so i think users should consider themselves lucky to get an upgrade offer such as this. yes i do already have a scratchamp and would like to make use of it, but if ni has restructured the timecode and made it better wouldn't that be a better solution than trying to work with the current code? i don't want to mess with work arounds or plugins that are unstable, i get paid to play, not stand around and wonder why nothing is working.
     
  19. MixMasterMark

    MixMasterMark NI Product Owner

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    225
    Phil, My laptop has only 2 USB ports. I use one for the Trigger Finger and the other for my wireless mouse & keyboard (well mainly mouse). If I go with the New Traktor DVS and required to use the dongle, do I need to add a USB HUB to my setup? And if so do I need to power the HUB?


    ~Mix Master Mark~
     
  20. PhilL

    PhilL Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    7,084
    A USB 2.0 Hub would definitely help you out here in this case and a powered hub could help you out should there ever be an issue with power drain. So far I have NOT seen any overloading problems. You don't have to have it plugged in always to work.

    A good rule of thumb is to get the A8 plugged in as close to the Root hub as you can to minimize delay, latency and keep the data path as free as possible.

    Phil
     
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