Sound I/O Persistency when loading Groups

Discussion in 'MASCHINE Area' started by Florian G @ NI, Jan 5, 2017.

  1. Scaper7

    Scaper7 NI Product Owner

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    700
    i can't speak for Joca, but this would make perfect sense for my workflow ... (with no need for anything to be recorded in Mashine's sequencer)
     
  2. CakeAlexS

    CakeAlexS NI Product Owner

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    5,274
    Cough they were talking about "DAW mode" cough. I made a suggestion.. cough... Apologies for being SO off topic ;) Also unless you are the developer you would have absolutely no idea what resources it takes, or indeed how efficient the code is, here is just an assumption, and you are doing exactly the same as me. Anyway I've said what I had to say and have submitted the circumstantial evidence to the ether m'lud. I had no intention for a simple one liner to turn into a huge debate, and I'm not the only person who has asked for this.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2017
  3. ness

    ness New Member

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    24
    I'm happy to read, that finally some work is goin into this issue - fingers crossed they wont put this into some payed upgrade 3.0 or so...
     
  4. lethal_pizzle

    lethal_pizzle NI Product Owner

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    I think the technical limitations of VST & AU plugins would make this difficult
     
  5. Dj Ravix

    Dj Ravix New Member

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    Personally I Think A Secondary VST or AU with these settings already set by default would be Nice
    It Would be so much easier If A DAW User Could just open the Plugin in the Mode They Like to use it in
    without having to think how they must setup all those settings ... And I Know they have done these kind of things in the past
    So Why not with Maschine ???
     
  6. Scaper7

    Scaper7 NI Product Owner

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    700
    not sure how you arrive at this conclusion ... i thought this to be the standard with most VST plugs with Maschine being an exception (by intentional design)
     
  7. b-righteous

    b-righteous Moderator Moderator

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    This is due to the fact that Maschine in control mode is communicating directly with the Maschine plugin through a proprietary NI protocol and not using midi CC for modulation.

    Maschine as a VST works just the same as any other plugin in that it will respond to incoming midi events from your DAW track. There is no exception here. You would just use a generic midi controller just as you would with any other VST or flip Maschine to midi mode. But the fact that Maschine hardware is not using midi in control mode and communicates directly with the Maschine plugin is what allows the level of control and feedback that is unique to Maschine. So there is the technical limitation and why it would be difficult to achieve within Maschine's control mode. The modulation via autowrite in control mode is directly wired and does not pass to your DAW. Your DAW would not even be able to read the proprietary messages if it did.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2017
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  8. Joca

    Joca NI Product Owner

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    Yes Maschine software is the VST not the hardware controller.
     
  9. Mr36

    Mr36 NI Product Owner

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    7,810
    Okay, so we're in agreement that "bypassing the sequencer" wouldn't really help or solve any issues then. Good. Let's just leave it at that. :)


    Indeed, the DAW/host provides the clock and MASCHINE is essentially a slave to it when used as a plugin, but MASCHINE has to do something with that clock/timing (many instruments and effects inside MASCHINE need it, regardless of the sequencer).


    This could cause more problems than it fixes e.g., former projects looking for and loading the wrong plugin version. Mainly though, there's no need for another version, it's just a few features and flexible implementations. Anyway, with a saved default template with the settings you want, it would be just like loading your own personal MASCHINE plugin version.


    Perhaps AU with its MIDI out limitations (though I believe it is possible, just not very accessible/easy, so developers typically don't bother), but VST can transmit MIDI out to the host or even to MIDI ports directly (as you probably know), so it "just" requires MASCHINE's parameter tweaks and modulation to be converted and transmitted as MIDI CCs (as well as or instead of the plugin automation already possible).
    I could imagine this as being part of the Pattern switching MIDI feature that some want with Groups being designated a MIDI port for their Pattern switching, Sound MIDI, and modulation output.
     
  10. lethal_pizzle

    lethal_pizzle NI Product Owner

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    10,600
    What I meant to say was: some DAWs have limitations in the number of automation parameters they can address, both in terms of absolute number, and sometimes in the way they are enumerated. Thus you have to tell Maschine which one of the (sometimes many thousand of dynamically changing) automation parameters from any particular plugin you want to route to Maschine's smaller number of available slots for automation in the host.

    There are similar problems with the use of MIDI cc for controlling automation too, in terms of how the host handles MIDI plus the finite amount of MIDI cc and channels

    Consider the amount of knobs you tweak in Maschine versus the amount of knobs you actually want to automate in the host. For example, with Ableton, you can only automate 128 parameters from the plugin. If every knob you tweak pops up in Ableton as an automatable parameter, then you'd quickly run out, and this accounts for the way you have to assign automation out to the host in Maschine.

    What is missing is for a shortcut to assign the automation directly or via Midi CC directly from the hardware so your workflow is not interrupted by going to the laptop.
     
  11. Florian G @ NI

    Florian G @ NI NI Team

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    145
    Would you still expect to use multiple Groups inside Maschine in this case?
     
  12. Florian G @ NI

    Florian G @ NI NI Team

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    145
    Indeed, the automation systems of many hosts would be overwhelmed with the number of parameters Maschine would have to publish. Automation lists might get truncated and then recording parameters only works for some parameters.

    But it's true that there could be faster ways to enable automation for those parameters you definitely want to automate.
     
  13. b-righteous

    b-righteous Moderator Moderator

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    9,677
    Exactly what I was thinking. Currently you select what you want to automate via Macro. This could be much faster and easier to get going than it is now.
     
  14. b-righteous

    b-righteous Moderator Moderator

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    9,677
    I see, a way to spit out midi CC to a dedicated virtual midi port? You would then rout this port to your DAW track manually. I suspect some folks would still complain that the routing does not automagically happen. Logic users will complain that Logic won't be able to access the midi. Not sure it will be worth the effort. Would rather they just make it easier to get a parameter enabled for host automation quickly. From there, it is up to the user to automate in host just like any other VST. The autowrite was meant to be used for Maschines sequencer and just does not fit logically as a way to automate a host. It's a bit of a stretch and unorthodox. And again, there will need to be user setup regardless so not sure worth the effort as most still won't appreciate it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2017
  15. Mr36

    Mr36 NI Product Owner

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    7,810
    Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but what have macros got to do with it? You can automate (almost) anything and not even touch the macros.

    VST plugins can access MIDI ports directly, so virtual MIDI ports would be one way to go. It would also perhaps be most flexible, as the DAW would just be able to use it as it would any incoming stream of MIDI. And I might be wrong (would need to check), but I think AU can be made to access MIDI ports too, it's the transmitting MIDI out of the plugin (different thing) that is tricky and typically not implemented, I believe, so Logic users would be fine too.

    And to also address @lethal_pizzle's very valid point about just how many parameters MASCHINE could and usually does have and how many DAWs would choke at some point, I perhaps wasn't clear enough before, but I just meant that the MIDI output from parameters and modulation in MASCHINE would only happen if they had been activated to do so, not unlike how they are enabled for automation now, though some controller shortcut to do this would, of course, be better. That way, some initial setup would be required, but it could be limited to a few preferences settings or Group-level MIDI settings if it could co-incide with Pattern MIDI triggers, and templates for different DAWs could be provided easily too. If done well and, importantly, shown to work well, I think a lot of DAW users would be interested and it would make MASCHINE feel like a real part of their DAW setup.
     
  16. b-righteous

    b-righteous Moderator Moderator

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    Okay, thanks for explaining. Still not sure if Logic could do that though. Sorry about the Macro terminology. On the same page as far as a faster way to enable a parameter for host automation.
     
  17. Mr36

    Mr36 NI Product Owner

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    7,810
    No need for apologies, squire. I just wasn't sure what you meant. :)

    Just wondering if all DAWs allow the plugin to enable their own parameters for automation without doing anything in the DAW itself. It works in Live and, I think, REAPER, but I don't know about others. It would still be welcome, but the MIDI port output could work even better in some respects as it is more "universal" (all DAWs with MIDI sequencer capability can accept MIDI input) and allows parameter movements and modulation made in MASCHINE to be recorded and used as MIDI and not tied to specific parameters e.g., using the same recorded MIDI for other things.
    But anyway, something to make this more immediate from the controllers would be great.

    Just tried the AU version of a plugin that has this MIDI port access (ctrlr) in MASCHINE (don't have Logic) and it can access the MIDI ports the same as the VST version.
    This functionality wouldn't just benefit DAW users for this purpose though either, it could make MASCHINE as a plugin feel even more standalone (i.e., directly accessing the MIDI ports without having to route through the DAW).
     
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  18. certifiedbeatz

    certifiedbeatz NI Product Owner

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    1,150
    Hate spending money on equipment that i have and should do what i intended it to do... MPCX looks like my answer.. anyone looking to buy a MPC2500 great condition with JJOS 1.50
     
  19. CakeAlexS

    CakeAlexS NI Product Owner

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    5,274
    Why are you going "off topic" again (according to you) and putting words into my mouth? This is a feature request to have a sequencer off button for reasons I've explained. You disagree, others agree, I've argued my case, you've argued yours..let it go. Fact is I agreed with everything you said earlier but you've decided not to agree with this (my one suggestion). And frankly if this feature existed it would not effect you whatsoever, you are just being pedantic. Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2017
  20. AntonA1

    AntonA1 NI Product Owner

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    1,710
    I think a lot of us on here figured out already that the inability to retain midi settings was linked to a binding of those settings to the Group - Project hierarchy paradigm. As bombastic as it sounds, this paradigm will always be Maschine greatest strength and simultaneously its greatest weakness. What would it look like if there was a parallel functionality that ignored this completely and worked like a traditional DAW? I.e. any event, anywhere on the timeline -along with associated midi and audio info- was recognized and could be moved anywhere else? Instead of trying to make everything fit into little neat boxes, it may be time to break down the walls completely and let us just treat audio and midi as discrete events that can be moved freely along the time line. Most people work in 4 - 8 bar loops anyways. Then switch back to Scene mode to copy or work with all info in a column....I always hoped that would be how they handled song mode - instead of trying to stay locked to Scenes, Groups and Patterns. If Scene mode is on, Scene rules (and the traditional Maschine paradigm) win. If off, DAW rules work. Done. Awaiting the barrage of abuse :p
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2017
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