tagging and filtering songs in library (and/or logic)

Discussion in 'Feature Request' started by Kengo I, Jun 17, 2020.

  1. Kengo I

    Kengo I New Member

    Messages:
    1
    I would like to be able to put tags on songs and to be able to search for them.

    - should easily be able to add tags to multiple songs at once without a problem of overwriting
    (Comments are overwritten instead of being accumulative)
    • Highlight all songs in playlist 1 and add a tag {a}
    • Highlight all songs in playlist 2 and add a tag {b}
    • highlight all songs in playlist 3 and add a tag {b}
    • a song in all playlists 1, 2, 3 will have all the tags {a}, {b}, {c}
    • (Comments and Comments 2, in this case, will only have the most recent tag {c})
    - should be able to search with and/or logic
    • song 1: tags {a} {b}
    • song 2: tags {a} {b}
    • song 3: tags {a}
    • song 4: tags {b}
    • search: {a} + {b} would yield song 1 and song 2 only
    just as rekordbox can do.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2020
  2. Almaz

    Almaz NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    197
  3. alec.tron

    alec.tron NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    683
    This all falls back to allowing Traktor to read multi-value & custom metadata fields.i.e. these 2:
    https://www.native-instruments.com/...ulti-value-tags-i-e-more-than-1-genre.327465/
    https://www.native-instruments.com/forum/threads/metadata-handling-custom-tags-metadata.327467/

    So far, none of that exists in Traktor, still, despite it being a standard metadata convention for m3u & vorbis containers for close to 20 years.
    Once that is sorted, you would be able to read/write the above, then you could construct smart-playlist (if/once these come to Traktor as well) logic around your genre/components/instruments/style/occasion 'tags'. Meaning:
    First we'd need the metadata convention support, then smart/auto playlists/crates in Traktor...!

    Whereas RB allows this - alas, only inside their proprietary tag database, locking users into their eco system, with no way to use the music relative metadata anywhere but in RB (which is one reason I will never consider switching to RB as my central solution...).

    c.

    ps. you could also +1 this (It's already in the top-5 requested "features") and show your support for multi-value metadata support for TDJ2, which is apparently the future basis of Traktor Pro...
    i.e. here:
    https://support.native-instruments....alue-custom-fields-value-remapping-etc-en-us-
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2020
  4. Almaz

    Almaz NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    197
    Of course, everyone has their own approach to the library, but I have never experienced problems in rekorbox that it does not use the tags of the tracks themselves, on the contrary, I think this is the right solution. After all, different types of audio files have different standards, so it is a smart decision on the part of software developers to make another abstraction over the files and not depend on them. Especially in the case of pioneer-it has one ecosystem and works well.

    In traktor was other problem, original tags overlap tags of traktor, but this bug was fixed in beta 3.4.0.150, (I hope)

    The second point you're talking about is multitags, where we can fit multiple tags into a single column, which is a cool suggestion, and I've written about it myself in my browser suggestions, and it can be done at the library abstraction level without affecting the files themselves.

    I think that the traktor should make a similar system for rekordbox, which all have long wanted.

    And in order to facilitate the process of using your library outside of the traktor, we can make a multi-level library export, for example, exporting a playlist to a flash drive with automatic creation of folders according to special parameters. For example, a DJ can set three folder levels .
    - House, trance, breaks,
    - bpm
    - energy levels
    and the traktor exports all files with subfolders.
    Another option is to make a common standard between all programs, so that Pioneer, Traktor, Serato and Denon agree on a single xml standart.

    I don't really see paths with internal file tags, they are all developed by different companies. FLAC, MP3, AIFF, WAV, MP4 files they have different tag standards, don't they?
     
  5. alec.tron

    alec.tron NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    683
    Sorry, just no, absolutely not! Not sure if you understand what you are suggesting here...
    Rekordbox stores your tags inside of Rekordbox Databases. Which you can never use/access anywhere else....
    This is deliberate market politics to lock users into their eco system;due to that, Pioneer refuses to offer tools for its' users to export this internally stored data. And this is not acceptable behaviour for me.
    Why this is bad:
    - if you want to use your tags you have entered into Rekordbox anywhere else (Traktor, Serato, Ableton, etc) - you can not (for the ones that are stored in DB, and not in metadata - i.e. myTags, which many people use to organize literally everything.... genres, moods, energy, you name it, and that is there decision, but will most likely be surprised if they ever consider if they could use the painstakingly curated in RB anywhere else. If you use file metadata, you are software agnostic, and can take your data everywhere...!)
    - RB corrupts its' own database occasionally. This means, all your work, since the last database backup in database tags is gone forever when this happens, even IF you only ever intend to use Rekordbox, and nothing else.

    This is simply just a bad approach.... which is why I am so vocal for NI to do it better. Hopefully...

    That will never happen. There's no commercial viability for anyone... and this si what Pioneer is actively trying to stop you do and lock you into Rekordbox.... i.e. when you have invested a certain amount of time, the barrier to leave will just get higher... and people will just stay locked in, or throw away their time/work.

    They have, but they overlap in most functionalities.
    And, NI uses a metadata API that is well suited for all formats. i.e. this:
    https://taglib.org/

    c.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2020
  6. Almaz

    Almaz NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    197
    Well, I used a rekordbox with different controllers and I didn't have any data loss, So any company will make its own system and will not be interested in promoting exports to other platforms. And it seems to me that if dj really wants to move the library, it can be done not so difficult, even creating about 100-150 folders will not take more than 2 hours.

    If the DJ is constantly playing on pioneer, for example, he is a resident of a club or something, he can use the rekordbox as his main database, but if he still likes the controllers from traktor, he can just transfer the finished playlist and play it.

    I understand that you want to be independent with your personal system and tags in your files. But how will you deal with different tag standards in audio files? As far as I know, all files have different tag saving capabilities, please correct if this is not the case

    the traktor supports the following formats
    MP3
    WAV
    AIFF
    Audio CD
    FLAC
    Ogg Vorbis
    AAC(M4A)

    tag ID3v2 supports
    MP3,
    wav
    aiff

    What should we do with these formats?
    flac, ogg, AAC(M4A), Audio CD

    There is also an interesting article on this account
    https://stackoverflow.com/questions...le-to-add-id3-tags-to-m4a-files-using-mutagen

    From what I know of tag ID3v2, it was mostly used for the mp3 files + the tratkor team will have to solve a lot of compatibility problems with other formats that do not support tag ID3v2 by default or have their own tag system, like the fairly popular aac(m4a)

    When we can see how many potential problems this creates, it's easier to make one abstraction above our tags and not torment yourself with it. how to make a rekordbox

    Some thoughts
     
  7. Almaz

    Almaz NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    197
    also, IDI 3tags do not support hot cues, this creates another problem, I still think to make it easy to export between different platforms, companies must agree on a single standard for the library as a whole(xml file), which would be supported by all DJ programs and standalone players. So that we can work with tags and hot cues. Any effort just one of the platforms is not enough, I see it that way.
     
  8. alec.tron

    alec.tron NI Product Owner

    Messages:
    683
    Heya,
    first off - yes, you are right. It doesn't matter if you/someone is going to stay in Rekordbox all his life, and never has a corrupted RB database.
    But, that is ever more unlikely, the longer you use it... but, it can probably work for some. If it ever were to happen to you, you are going to be very sad and angry and will most likely have to do the same work all over again (since the last backup... and DJs are notoriously **** at keeping organized backups... and some of us have spent thousands of hours on their music libraries over the last 20 years...)

    Re
    The problem is, there's fair bit of misconceptions in the way you explain and/or understand metadata containers. I can point you to some resources, but I can not explain everything here.
    For starters
    • you're mixing audio codecs (mp3, wav, flac, etc), with metadata containers (id3, vorbis, etc). These are fundamentally different things.
    • there is no convention for hot cues, that is corerect. But, that is proprietary information (from Pioneer, NI, Serato) and they will not share the internals. However, NI & Serato store that data in the metadata container, to be safe, and transferable with the files. Pioneer/RB does not. But, for proprietary data, this does not matter much either. It will only ever work in the proprietary software it is written for anyway. (and by now there's even 3rd party software that can "translate" this "secret" data... i.e. RekordBuddy, RekordCloud & the likes)
    • there is however conventions for pretty much everything else you want to associate with your music file in metadata. Namely, and this is what I am arguing for, multiple Genre/Artist/Comment values, as well as custom metadata fields. NI & Serato even create & inject them themselves. They just give us no access to the custom fields we might have created (I for example have custom fields that holds information for Instruments, Riddims/Instrumentals, Moods, Styles, references MusicBrainz, Discogs and so on and forth, injected with minimal effort...). But only a very small pre-defined sub set they (NI & Serato) deemed appropriate 15+ years ago are actually exposed & usable by us users. And this has not changed, and is and always has been a severe shortcoming.
    See this for a detailed metadata container features comparison:
    https://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=Tag_Mapping

    And, there's many free/small media players out there (MusicBee, Foobar2000, mp3edit, mediaMonkey etc pp) that do a very good job at parsing the same info/data to multiple format contianer conventions. This is not rocket science.
    And as pointed out - NI / Traktor even uses an API (= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_programming_interface, i.e. tagLib, linked above), that does all the heavylifting (data injecting into the containers conventions) for them...

    Hope this helps.
    c.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2020