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Traktor Scratch and old FS2 amp (yeah again...)

Discussion in 'TRAKTOR SCRATCH' started by nik39, Apr 2, 2007.

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  1. nik39

    nik39 NI Product Owner


    okay, we all know about the great things which have happened between Stanton and NI. Honestly, I dont really care much about what has happened and who is to blame - actually we won't ever find out the ultimate truth.

    I also understand NI is not allowed to support the Stanton/FS timecode, due to legal issues.

    However, what is completely unclear why NI is not at least offering to the old FS2 customers (which were also NI's customers at that time when they bought FS2) support for the new Traktor Scratch timecode on the old hardware (I cant see how Stanton could ever block that attempt, as ASIO is an open driver architecture, and the Traktor Scratch Timecode is NI's intellectual property). ASIO drivers are available. Traktor Scratch could easily identify which ASIO device is being connected. Any existing FS customers could have gotten a free software update to Traktor Scratch honoring being loyal to NI.

    So whats the official explanation for this?
  2. nem0nic

    nem0nic Forum Member

    Now that NI are making hardaware, it's in their best interest to drive customers to their hardware solution. If that also drives another nail in the FS coffin I don't know if NI as a company would lose much sleep. The stop order (or cease and decist, or whatever it actually was) from Stanton was/is a problem as well.

    There's alot of bad blood between the companies as a collective, and it seems the real losers are the previous customers.
  3. nik39

    nik39 NI Product Owner

    That's exactly the point - it's all in NI's interest. They should have thought a little bit more about what is in the (until now loyal) customers interest as well. Of course I understand NI wants to make money. But at some point and with some crappy 'excuses' its just is unethical.
  4. nem0nic

    nem0nic Forum Member

    There are some things at play here that you aren't considering, but I do agree with you. I think it's ethically questionable as well, but the entire history of these 2 companies working together has been filled with similar instances.

    This problem between the 2 companies didn't start last October. There have been problems between them almost since the start. Both companies have acted poorly, and it seems neither are interested in doing the right thing now with the previous FS owners.

    Understand that I am not arguing with you here at all. I agree with you 100%. But I know that no amount of complaining is going to change either company's course of action now. If either company saw the situation as you do, they would certainly act on it.
  5. nik39

    nik39 NI Product Owner

    Yeah... I mean understand the explanation about the legal stuff, timecode etc. What really bothers me is the point that NI is trying to get away with the fingerpointing and the legal timecode explanation while there is actually a way (as far as I can see it) supporting the Traktor Scratch timecode on the former Traktor Final Scratch h/w.

    This really bugs me, that they are trying to get away with this.

    Of course they don't give a ish, they never did really in the past and never ever will in the future, which is frustrating. I thought they would have learned from the past. Guess some things never change. :-(

    BTW, feel free to point me to the things at play that I am not considering - maybe that would lessen the pain :)
  6. DJ Freshfluke

    DJ Freshfluke Traktor Mod Moderator

    another thing is: whenever you would use traktor scratch with the scratchamp and you would have audio dropouts or whateva, it would always fall back on NI, not stanton.

    i know it's hard, but if i was mr. & mrs. native instruments, i wouldnt support the SA2 neither...
  7. Dijibuddha Magnetik

    Dijibuddha Magnetik NI Product Owner

    Yeah I agree...
    It's like for example a partner and I build a client a $2500 computer and then decide 8 months later that things aren't working so well with the partner and I would rather get into the manufacturing of computer components.
    So why the hell should I have to honor the remainder of the 14 month service agreement on the system I sold!?
    It's obviously not my problem anymore,especially as I've ofered to sell them a new system direct from the factory at a slightly reduced cost to replace the faulty one they purchased from me previously....!
  8. djquartz

    djquartz NI Product Owner

    Unfortunately there is a point being missed here which will be brought up.

    NI just announced their Traktor Certified program at MusikMesse.

    So 3rd party mixers with their own built-in audio interface will be supported by Traktor Scratch and Traktor 3. These devices are Firewire based not USB.

    That being said, doesn't anyone realized this is going to spark a whole new fire with SA2 users??

    I personally want nothing to do with that big ass brick of an interface the SA2 happens to be. However, not everyone feels this way.

    The Audio 8 DJ kicks ass, PERIOD!
  9. nik39

    nik39 NI Product Owner

    Of course not, because you didn't pay for it as you are a beta tester, right?

    Sorry, what a crap. Can you explain again was the Traktor Certified program has anything to do with this?

    All I said was, technically (and I still think legally) its quite easy to support the new timecode with the old hardware - as we already have ASIO drivers. Its just not right for the existing customers.
  10. nem0nic

    nem0nic Forum Member

    I agree that it's POSSIBLE to easily integrate Scratchamp support into the Traktor Scratch program. I KNOW it is. But as much as you'd like for this to be the point, it really isn't.

    The point is whether both companies WANT to do that. And they don't. And they're both willing to lose customers to support their convictions. I think that's unfortunate, but I also know enough now about what went on that I can see where each entity is coming from. I still don't agree with them and wish they would both "man up" and come up with a solution that would try and help the original purchasers of FS2, since that product has never gotten the support or development it deserved (and is easily capable of).

    I really wish I could explain the whole story to you. It's like a big soap opera, and it explains alot. But I've been given information in confidence from several people who are (or were) close to the situation and don't want to in any way betray their trust.
  11. djquartz

    djquartz NI Product Owner

    First things first, beta testers don't get FREE hardware. We get to test the system but have to pay for it just like everyone else when the testing cycle is finished.

    So I sold my FS2 to fund the purchase of Traktor Scratch. Not to mention I own Traktor 3 as well and will take advantage of the crossgrade offer.

    So right there I've pretty much paid for my Traktor Scratch system clean and clear.

    Seems pretty logical to me. However, that isn't the point here.

    Here is the info on the Traktor Certified Program, http://www.native-instruments.com/index.php?id=tscratchcertified_us

    If the program is extended to allow 3rd party soundcards, I can't see why Stanton couldn't apply and SA2 support implemented.
  12. nik39

    nik39 NI Product Owner

    Thats exactly the point :-( NG said that its like in a divorce - the kids are those who are suffering. While this is true, I would want the best for my kids - even after we divorced, I might think my ex is a whitch - but its still my kid who I care for. Thats not what STanton/NI is doing. They seem to care about pride etc. Pretty disguesting IMHO.

    Quartz, well you don't get the h/w cheaper even as a beta tester?

    Anyway, there is not way stanton will apply for NI suport, absolutely no way. They give a **** about existing FS2 customers (like they always did) and due to the reasons explained before NI seem to act the same way. (No, crosscrade is not the best way for the customer - we all gotta agree the SA2 is a good soundcard - it definitly is [except for some dodgy stuff nem0nic found out]).

    BTW - smileys, and 'multiquoting' - this board is getting better ;)
  13. djquartz

    djquartz NI Product Owner

    @ Nik39

    I posted a seperate post for this exact issue. I even went as far a forwarding a quick speel on how a small upgrade fee for current SA2 users would still generate revenue and show appreciation for users who adopted T3 because of FS2 support.

    My biggest beef with Stanton is they claimed to take over support in 2005 only to turn around and not provide a solution come 2007 when they had ample time to handle the situation.

    Stanton had more than a year to provide and they did nothing. Open sourcing FS was not a solution it was a way out.

    I still think NI could be the saviour when it comes to the matter. But, I don't know all the legalities involved, etc. If you review the Skratchworx articles, Stanton stated that NI is included in the FS Open list.

    So we could argue this point forever, it's ultimately NI's decision to allow it in Traktor Scratch.

    I personally don't know all the details of the Stanton/NI relationship going bad. I only know pieces and cannot be discussed.

    Stanton said NI would be allowed to support the SA2, I don't know if they are forcing FS Open adopters to use their timecode scheme.

    NI would be no further ahead if they were forced to support the FS timecode scheme when their scheme is superior, PERIOD.
  14. nik39

    nik39 NI Product Owner

    Neither did NI. Just offering a crossgrade is not a solution IMHO.

    Maybe I was not clear enough, I am not talking about FS Open, not about the former FS/Stanton timecode. Just use the FS2 amp as a soundcard. With ASIO drivers you can go this route without ever needing any 'permission' of Stanton (in my laymans words), you still can check whether its a FS2 device, no problem. I can't see how they could disallow that. But, yeah I dont have access to the all the legal mumbo jumbo.
  15. djquartz

    djquartz NI Product Owner

    You don't have to be more clear because I know what you meant and it's already been discussed.

    The other point I made is if Traktor Scratch supported asio on the SA2 it would give users time to upgrade to the Audio 8 as well.

    Once you see how small the A8 is compared to the SA2, you will see what I mean.

    That's why I put FS2 up for sale, there was no reason to keep it.

    Also, originally we were under the belief Traktor Scratch was going to be a closed system. Now with the Certification program, it changes all that.

    So if Stanton wants to be supported, they can squash all this beef and jump onboard.

    I'm sure NI won't decline them if they did, but it's about procedure now.

    NI is responsible because the Traktor platform was the medium. But Stanton is responsible to make a proper move because Final Scratch is their product not technicially NI's apart from the software.

    NI saved Stanton, they had nothing to do with it until Stanton desperately needed software development to save FS after the 1.0 fiasco. NI provided the medium because Stanton couldn't produce it.

    Does NI have an obligation, yes but not as large a portion as Stanton. Stanton picked the developer, it's on their head to make ammends and provide a solution for their product now.

    NI didn't terminate the contract on their own and it seems people are trying to make it look that way.

    Point blank the game now is this.

    Traktor = NI's product (well before FS was even an option)
    Traktor Scratch = NI's product.
    Final Scratch = Stanton's product.

    Traktor Final Scratch = NI + Stanton which died in 2005.

    So I wonder...

    Are people also contacting Stanton and telling them make an agreement with NI because they still want the combination of the products?

    Are people going on the FS Open MySpace page and also forwarding these demands?

    Are people just making it an issue on the NI forum alone because the medium is there?
  16. nik39

    nik39 NI Product Owner

    I've seen and used Traktor Scratch already.

    Screw that. My FS2 box has two big sized logos:

    FS2 which I bought, as explained before is a Stanton AND NI product.

    Isn't it obvious? NI as a former part of parents is responsible for it as well as Stanton. Now I don't care about Stanton, they have nothing to offer, NI has something to offer. So as a good parent they should have helped me out.

    I know, moving in a circle. :-( I know its not going to happen. It's just a f****ing shame.
  17. djquartz

    djquartz NI Product Owner

    No one truly knows this not a possiblity.

    My beef is no one is forcing Stanton's hand at nothing.

    Everyone is just *****ing at NI about providing.

    If Stanton has nothing to offer, that is a problem right there.

    Meaning they are taking ZERO resposibility and that is a problem.

    So why should NI have to carry all the weight?

    Even if you don't like your ex, you still have to pay your child support.
  18. nik39

    nik39 NI Product Owner

    Who is offering a new DVS, Stanton or NI?
    Still wondering why they are *****ing at NI?

    They have *nothing* to offer right now.

    Exactly. So if I was unemployed and couldn't pay - there is nothing my child can do about it. Stanton is unemployed. If they were employed and would offer something good I would ***** at them as well.

    NI is employed. They should take responsibility to show some appreciation for the customers (no, upgrade path for $449 is not what I call an appreciation).
  19. djquartz

    djquartz NI Product Owner

    The judge might have some understanding but tell you to go get a job.

    There are already 3rd party programs supporting FS2 from before the NI/Stanton dissolution.

    It doesn't appear that Stanton has struck any deals with those vendors either to provide better FS support.

    And you made a good point there. NI made a new DVS solution, not Stanton.

    And Traktor & TFS still support FS timecode and SA2.

    Worse yet, Stanton promised a Final Scratch 3 solution that had nothing to do with NI and choked!

    I have emails proving this very fact up until late last year.
  20. gblr_Tf

    gblr_Tf Forum Member

    AW: Traktor Scratch and old FS2 amp (yeah again...)

    i have a question:
    is there a dongle in the audio-hardware necessary to run traktor scratch? if yes, then the traktor scratch certified products must have this dongle.

    if not, it should be possible to run every audio-interface with (the update-kit of) traktor scratch?!
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